Anna Dryjanska, naTemat: "Scandalical", "bulging", "hair on the head of a hedgehog" – these are your words about KPO. Why do you talk PiS?
Deputy Minister Jan Szyszko: My work as a state authoritative is to guarantee that all euro from public money – and that is European funds – is allocated to those for which it should.
And if I get quite a few reports of probable irregularities in the usage of European funds, it's actually "hair on my head."
I realize accounting, but I mean rhetoric. Why did you let yourself into this PiS narrative: scandal, defeat, scandal?
I don't agree that I let myself into anything. If there are reports that the money that was intended to rebuild businesses in the HoReCa manufacture is spent on targets that are not utilized for this reconstruction, then it is essential to talk very powerfully and straight about what is happening. And go consecutive to action.
This is what separates this government from the PiS government. Back then we were dealing with multi-area rollers that were swept under the carpet.
And erstwhile something came out, they cut the subject off immediately. You're in a crisis.
I wouldn't say the PiS had no crises. But he surely had no respect for the public money he managed. And I'm not going to be convinced by your editor that the case had to be swept under the rug.
I'm glad this case came out. And it happened due to the transparency of the data. It's not like it happened by accident. All investments from KPO are to be checked on the website. This is besides the government's commitment – public spending will be transparent. Thus, citizens who are afraid about the functioning of the state, about spending public money, were able to look into it and make it public, which raises far-reaching doubts.
Today we're 2 weeks smarter. We know what the actual scale of irregularities is. Even if it is 4 or 5 percent or even little investment under the scheme, it is 4 or 5 percent besides much.
When PiS had the money blocked, he could cover half of Poland with billboards from KPO. As a government, you have the money, but you don't have a poster. Why?
The answers to this question are two: 1 official, the another more human. One: unlike cohesion policy, there is no clear work in the government to advertise investments from KPO, i.e. to put up signs indicating that it comes from this programme.
Two: indeed, we request a much more coordinated and stronger run with affirmative effects of the National Reconstruction Plan. That's not enough. At the same time, there is simply quite a few disinformation around this program. It's definitely eating up any of the communications resources. "But I agree – we should do more as a government to show affirmative effects of KPO".
Now most KPO people associate with a yacht that was misappropriated by any clever entrepreneur. The Prime Minister thinks the fact will defend itself?
It would be highly insensitive if I spoke on behalf of the Prime Minister. The Government Information Centre is liable for the government's information campaigns. That's where the questions should be directed.
What about the KPO campaign?
That's the full government's job.
I'm just wondering why Morawiecki didn't have that money, he smiled at all intersection, and the state is so quiet.
We carry out this run within the ministry and our – of course modest – resources. And I, and your minister, ride around Poland, visit circumstantial investments from the National Reconstruction Plan. We besides conduct online information campaigns. But is the effect satisfactory? Absolutely not. I think we should do this with more momentum.
You said that Waldemar Bud was calling the officials of the ministry, trying to get information about the KPO from them. Did he start August 8th or earlier?
It was after August 8 erstwhile the case became public. The erstwhile minister of funds and the current Euro MP, who builds his image around expert-fund themes, called the ministry officials. These were exemplary. They reported the case to the applicable authorities within the ministry. They didn't give him any information.
Here, the most shocking issue is truly the approach to the state that Mr Bud represents. He called the civilian servants. These are people who virtually service Poland, and he wants...
...in this way to exert pressure.
Let me remind you that Waldemar Buda negotiated the first version of the HoReCa industry's funding. He's the 1 who put this investment in KPO. So he should know precisely what he's asking.
And the fact that Waldemar Buda is willing to convince officials to share information only for his organization usage shows his attitude towards the Polish state.
It is absolutely unacceptable to extract information on the HoReCa programme from civilian servants. civilian service is sacred in this country. The instrumental effort to usage it is not within the political rules of the game.
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Wiktor Knowski, INNPoland: Let's take a step backwards. Why fund the HoReCa manufacture so many years after the pandemic? After all, it is known that those entrepreneurs who survived it have an established position and now do not request this support.
The National Reconstruction Plan is part of the Fund for Reconstruction, which is an undertaking of the European Union and was to lift the European economy after the pandemic. Hence, many investments under this fund – not only in Poland – were geared towards raising sectors from their knees, which in the pandemic were peculiarly affected. The HoReCa manufacture undoubtedly belonged to them. Is the implementation of this programme optimal in 2024 and 2025? Absolutely not.
If not for the two-year blocking of the National Recovery Plan, motivated by a peculiar organization interest, we could talk about the implementation of these investments much earlier. It wasn't done. At this point, the peculiar treatment of this industry, in a plan that would be prepared present for today's needs, would not be justified.
However, let us remember that in 2023 the Law and Justice Government reviewed this investment with the European Commission, utilizing this 1 option to change the investment under the KPO. We didn't have that option anymore.
So, what kind of aid did it get to entrepreneurs whose companies did not last the pandemic?
For example, the tourism voucher formula, which was utilized by the erstwhile government to support the HoReCa sector, is much little controversial.
Yeah, couldn't it be applied now?
In KPO, the tourist voucher wouldn't pass. Neither shield support nor direct support may be provided in this programme. So you can't put KPO money in your pocket. KPO is an investment tool aimed at transferring disposable economical boosters.
How long has this incidental caused in the implementation of KPO?
I don't think we're dealing with any delays. The check, which will last until September, will not affect the pay schedule. Thus, honest entrepreneurs who have obtained backing for projects that make sense and apply will not receive money late.
So we can invest all the money? Time's moving out.
Here you request to clearly separate 2 pockets inside KPO. The full KPO is about 260 billion PLN. I say around due to the fact that it depends on the current euro rate. Of this, about 110-115 billion, this is the grant part. And the remainder – loan.
In the grant part, all investment in the plan must be completed by August 2026. As regards the debt part, until August 2026 only contracts for task implementation must be signed.
A good example of how we share investments in KPO are Polish wind plants in the Baltic. With the grant part, we build an installation terminal for these plants, due to the fact that we will be able to do this in Gdańsk by August 2026. On the another hand, the construction of wind power plants themselves, this is simply a long, difficult, very complex process that we are doing in Poland for the first time. And here we're already utilizing the debt condition so that we can usage those billions from KPO.
We're going to aim to usage the absolute maximum of the grant part. This autumn we have another revision of the National Reconstruction Plan. one more time we will be reviewing all the investments that can be changed and utilized better. The precedence of this revision will be to usage the maximum of the grant part of the KPO.
As far as the debt part is concerned, we will usage it as much as it makes sense for our economy. Not by force. An example of specified a change in the debt part is an investment called the Green City Transformation Facility. We had EUR 8.9 billion to build green investments in Polish cities in the field of water management, to improve the energy efficiency of public infrastructure, low-carbon public transport, to build pocket parks, to green the squares and others.
We agreed with the Commission that we would sign a circumstantial number of contracts under this investment and it would be worth EUR 9 billion. It has turned out that we have achieved this exact number of contracts, only for just over EUR 1 billion. A full of €3.3 billion will be allocated to green urban transformations. In this way, we had EUR 5.6 billion released from the KPO, which we could invest in another way.
I will not exaggerate by saying that this decision changed the paradigm of reasoning about investments in Europe. The Pacific European Union charges money into shelters, dense manufacture and dual-use infrastructure? This is simply a truly large deal.
Anna Dryjanska: Well, since you managed to transfer that money from pocket parks to defense, why didn't you transfer money from the HoReCa manufacture 5 years after the pandemic to treat cancer patients? This is simply a question that falls on social media.
The European Commission is open to renegotiating any investment under the National Recovery Plan. And the negotiations are about 1 question: what has changed since 2021 and why what you wanted to do at the time is now pointless.
In the case of the Green Transformation Facility, it was easy to say: War around the corner.
Wiktor Knowski: Let's decision on to the investigation of the European Public Prosecutor's Office on the KPO. What are the consequences?
The Minister of Justice and the lawyer General asked to analyse this case. It's an addition to our control. I hope that the investigation and control will come to the same conclusion.
Could it be that in future we will find it hard to get EU funds?
I think the main consequence of this issue is the publicity of the rude Facebooks about the European Union and how EU money is being burned. This is the biggest shame of this affair and not only in Poland.
We are dealing with campaigns inspired by our east neighbour, which say: Dear Dutchman, dear Belgian, look at what your money goes for in Poland. And this is accompanied by examples that are Facebook.
An example, please.
There was a Facebook show that HoReC's co-financing went on loans for a while. The author of these revelations corrected them rather quickly. But the Facebook had a million-dollar reach, and a 10 or 100-fold correction.
We are in constant contact with the European Commission – there are presently no indications that the KPO scandal could have any financial consequences for Poland. In the next circular of negotiations with the Commission, which will be in September, I will surely want to present the results of our actions. Not in the spirit of translation, but in the spirit of information.
Anna Dryjanska: Let me usage the word that Minister Pełczyńska-Nałęcz used. Are you aware of the minister, or have a similar-scale imba been held in connection with KPOs in another countries, or are we the exception here? In another words: is KPO an component of political play in another countries?
KPO is surely part of the political game besides in another countries. erstwhile the HoReC case broke out, the first question that occurred to us was whether there were investments in another countries. We have besides looked at the US, which is frequently considered the perfect of modeling public investment, especially by those who criticise the European Union so much. I am talking primarily about the Confederacy.
Wiktor Knowski: Have you seen more effective examples of distribution of these funds?
I think the tourist voucher is simply a more effective example of supporting the HoReCa industry.
When we think of the fresh EU budget, we request to control to a model of entrepreneurship support that identifies circumstantial – those most innovative – industries.
Anna Dryjanska: Do you have a message of the day?
Good question. Yes, we do.
Are you talking about government or Poland 2050?
We're trying to put forward a common position, it's natural. And as a government, and as Poland 2050.
Thus, the transmission of the day operates on 2 levels: the Government Information Centre and within Poland 2050. Did that work well for the KPO affair?
I believe that in the KPO case the government communicated jointly and jointly. I stress: government. I'm not talking about the MPs.
Exactly. What was going on here?
I do not know that due to the fact that they were not Members of Poland 2050.
What moods in Poland 2050? Do you feel frustrated that you gotta explain something that was yet a large accomplishment of Poland?
Absolutely not. I believe that all crisis is an chance to transform public interest into any benefit. The work for KPO has been very clear from this crisis. Our task is to usage the interest of Poles who have grown around KPO to tell the communicative of this program.
And do you believe that you will begin to anticipate specified crises and come out with your own information?
Here I can appeal to the actions of my party. A good example is housing policy, which, in the general sense, did not necessarily service to make people afford housing, and served more to accumulate capital.
Thanks to the efficient communication run which I, the Minister and a number of Polish Members and Members of 2050 conducted first managed to block the aid for loans. And it turns out there's a way to change that. And in order to do so, to a large extent, it takes very strong public communication.
What would you say to president Kaczyński, who says, as in the times of the Law and Justice, all specified irregularities were accounted for, and you can't handle it?
I remember from PiS times a number of highly dubious investments from the Justice Fund, which were utilized as a tool – party-controlled and unclear – for unexplained funding. Jacek Sasin, who was liable for spending PLN 70 million on envelope elections that never took place. I remember the masks brought from China for 45 zlotys for a part that wasn't fit for use. Recently, the NIK study showed the scale of the money wasted by PiS at Ostrołęka Power Plant.
So a real decency would have ordered silence on how the PiS approached public money. due to the fact that they did it without simple respect, treated it as organization property. That crew treated the state as a organization farm that could be housed and robbed. This is simply a very different approach. And I agree: we can justice the government's communication policy differently, we can justice the pace of change. I realize and I hear those critical voices.
On the another hand, the KPO case has proved that we are dealing with the highest respect for public money and the full determination to settle each gold. Moreover, there has been quite a few talk about corruption allegations and financial gain for the Law and Justice.
Here we are talking about doubts about the rules for organising the programme under the National Recovery Plan. There is no way that any minister, any public office person, abuses his position to accomplish financial benefits. There's no corruption.
What did you learn as Minister Jan Szyszko?
If individual wants to be right, they should work at the university, and in politics it is not adequate to be right. You gotta have most, too.
And that's what I've learned over the last 2 years. This majority frequently requires an efficient, reliable and calm explanation of the facts. Whether public opinion or coalition partners. It is an absolutely underrated and very hard skill. But besides very much needed. You can't talk to people ex cathedra and anticipate everyone to realize and agree with you. This is an exercise of respect for a man.
Are you frustrated that a farm with good communication has a better position than decency?
No, I'm not frustrated. I am full aware that what the main opposition organization presents is simply a strategy of values, which is close to a large part of Polish citizens. However, quoting the leader of my organization Simon Holovnia: "Poland is simply a large country, we will all fit in here".
I am profoundly condemned to effort to description the voters of this organization or any another organization as uneducated or detached, liberal elites. I believe that not adequate politicians, especially the 2 main parties, are trying to realize the position from which the another organization comes into politics. The views of the voters of Law and Justice may be further from me, although I have full respect for them and I can argue with them.
And what plans does the ministry have for the remainder of the term? due to the fact that it's not just KPO.
Yes, but above all, the KPO, with which we are now facing a one-year sprint. The second thing is to negociate a fresh EU budget, which we will conduct together with the Chancellery of the Prime Minister. The 3rd thing, a self-government bill that will normalize relations between cities and alleged bagels around these cities.
Another thing – the country's medium-term improvement strategy by 2035. fewer people know that the main improvement paper in Poland is the 2016 strategy for liable improvement of Mateusz Morawiecki, which ceased to be valid even during the reign of Mateusz Morawiecki. Not until now. We request a fresh strategy paper.
Will president Nawrocki sign it?
I hope she supports it. The strategy is adopted by a resolution of the Council of Ministers, so it does not require the signature of president Karol Nawrocki.
