Why did LEPPER gotta die?
Aldona Zaorska - INTERVIEW WITH SUMLIN WAR
About the assassination of Andrzej Lepper with Wojciech Sumlinski, investigative journalist, book author The dangerous relationships of Andrzej Lepper were spoken by Aldon Zaorska.
Andrew Lepper was the last individual who wanted to kill herself. He was a man who had many plans, many hopes, but he besides knew that he had materials and cognition that, if he utilized them, could carry him to a large policy back, but also, if he utilized in an unskillable way, could bury him a metre and a half underground. He knew that.
Why does anyone inactive care about Andrzej Lepper's death?
Because it is 1 of many, and surely a fewer very crucial things, which, although it happened years ago, are not history, but something that is inactive going on. 1 of them is, for example, the case of the death of Fr Jerzy Popiełuszko, and I think that those who did not believe that the version presented in the alleged Toruń process was false, then after the 100% fact about Lech Wales came to light, they should reflect on this conviction. past in the Polish case is something that is inactive going on. The second specified issue for me is the criminal activity of the foundation, against which the erstwhile president Bronisław Komorowski led, I mean the Pro Civic Foundation. Another is the case concerning the circumstances of the death of Andrzej Lepper – inactive unexplained, inactive current, although it happened almost six years ago. I think that no 1 who has even noticed the book The Dangerous Relationships of Andrzej Lepper will have a shadow of a uncertainty that the death of the erstwhile Deputy Prime Minister, erstwhile Deputy talker of the Sejm and president of Self-defense was not suicide. No way. The evidence is hard, indisputable. So did the D.A.'s office. erstwhile I was late at the D.A.'s proceeding on this book, the arguments raised in it and what I testified during the three-and-a-half-hour proceeding were crucial and crucial adequate that he decided to call on further witnesses, including 1 that I peculiarly cared about, or Major ABW Tomasz Budzyński.
And returning to your question, the case of the death of Andrzej Lepper is inactive valid due to the fact that inactive very crucial figures of public life, in my and Andrzej Budzyński's opinion, are curious in not getting out. And since there is simply a lot going on in Poland on the basis of subcutaneous systems, about which people have no idea, it is very hard to start any cases, at the end of which we may scope the erstwhile prime ministers of Poland, I am talking about Mr Pawlak. After my proceeding at the D.A.'s office, however, I think that shortly the public will be able to learn more. We, writing the book Dangerous Relationships by Andrzej Lepper, have already reached the border of state and service secrecy of Major ABW Tomasz Budzyński. We couldn't go any further, and we couldn't compose any more, or Tomasz Budzyński would face the prosecutor himself as a suspect for breaking state secrecy, which is at hazard of imprisonment until the age of 10. That's why we had to stop. But Tomasz Budzyński is gathering with the prosecutor these days and I am convinced that it will be a minute of a circumstantial earthquake.
Will the substance be cleared up?
I am not naive to believe that things in Poland will go straight, that after giving a message it will go smoothly. Nope. I see these subcutaneous bonds that frequently the public can't see that are hidden.
Like in my erstwhile case, concerning the marshal's affair in which I was yet acquitted on September 1, 2016. 1 of the 100 amazing issues was the attitude of my 2 erstwhile colleagues – investigative journalists, and present the drunkards, who, erstwhile the full case was inactive going on, announced that they would arrange a gathering with an crucial man. I was going to find out about who I was gathering at the meeting. I went. This man turned out to be the erstwhile Prime Minister, besides the late Józef Oleksy. He came as a messenger from the president of Poland – then Bronisław Komorowski, explaining to me and telling me not to deal with certain matters and not to call on witnesses people I should not call for my own good. Joseph Oleks' argument? Who knows if I won't be able to walk out of all this with my defence if I don't call Komorowski to witness. I didn't get convinced. Besides, there was something else interesting about this story.
What's that?
That is, how it is that post-communist, post-communist Prime Minister comes like a transportation boy on behalf of the President-in-Office of Poland, supposedly a long-standing Solidarity activist, i.e. on behalf of a man who should be on the another side of the barricade. I asked myself, "What kind of bonds are there between people seemingly as different as Oleksy and Komorowski?" Meanwhile, I have seen hundreds of specified bonds in different situations and correlations. If at least erstwhile individual was in the charming Zaborek inn close Biała Podlaska, close Janów Podlaski and saw what a conglomerate of unusual characters meet there, from noble bishops, who are truly very respected by the public, to fresh scum, he could truly realize a lot. They meet in 1 place and talk like friends about things. Looking at it, you could truly have experienced a cognitive shock the first time. Later, after the second, 3rd time, people already realized that there were certain situations in Poland that could not be in any another nation.
I realize what you're saying is that there are akin relationships in the case of the death of Andrew Lepper?
The difficulty of the investigation into the death of Andrzej Lepper is due to these subcutaneous bonds, unknown to the public, where the launch of 1 component resembles pushing a block of domino. If individual breaks the conspiracy of silence on 1 issue, it can all fall apart. We moved and showed a situation. How many times have we had specified a situation in the III Republic erstwhile we heard: Prime Minister or politician – Oleksy, Pawlak, Tusk, Kwasniewski are criminals, erstwhile we scope power, we will settle them. But it was so unusual that in the 3rd Poland justice worked to the level of a private MP or senator, but the Prime Minister or president did not scope out. It was as if the huntsman wanted to pursue, but not catch. And the public only remained to ask what about the accounts promised. This situation has been experienced many times in Poland. I am not naive, and surely not naive adequate to believe that the explanation of Andrzej Lepper's case will be simple, due to the fact that I know that these invisible bonds and connections are highly important.
However, I am trying to be a average optimist in this matter, even though the prosecution has taken an interest in the substance at all. My first impression was positive, and the prosecutor, listening to my testimony, seemed even moved. We'll see what happens next. After my experience, I wait for the full fact to be revealed to the public. The fact about these people: about Komorowski, Pawlak, about the execution of Fr Popieluszko – a fundamental issue for knowing what the 3rd Polish Republic was.
A lot of people don't really know how large this case is. Fr Malkowski and I have talked about this a 100 times. This case cannot be forgotten due to the fact that there is simply a kind of mystery in this communicative that affects what is here and now. It is highly crucial for her to explain the meeting, which was included in the investigation of prosecutor Witkowski, concerning Mazowieckie, Geremek, Kiszczak and Jaruzelski; the meeting, which is the origin of another meetings, the arrangements which then projected on the full of the 3rd Republic of Poland, on who was the authority, and who was the bandit, who was destroyed, and who was insured. It all started on the mess of Father Popiełuszko's affairs. I know – I am leaving the subject of Andrzej Lepper here, but this is the same shelf. By explaining it, we will explain many another things. Not just the death of Andrew Lepper, an apparent homicide.
So, erstwhile again, I'd like to ask evidence...
Like this: according to investigation during the investigation, Andrzej Lepper, preparing for suicide, shortly before his death, precisely scrapped fingerprints from the chair and loop on which his body was found. No 1 in their right head will believe that the main concern of a suicide is to wipe off fingerprints. I asked investigators, prosecutors, peculiar services officers about it – they said they didn't know the second case so that the suicide victim would remove his tracks from the tool that he killed himself. It would be an issue in the past of forensics, not only Polish. And there was quite a few another evidence. Traces of at least 2 people at the scene (I'm consciously utilizing that word here). So on the day of the alleged suicide, or alternatively plainly speaking, on the day of the execution of Andrzej Lepper, in the bathroom where he died, there were traces of 2 people, traces that were never investigated. It's never been decided who they were. And there's quite a few another evidence that clearly indicates that this man was murdered.
Why? To whom and why did Andrew Lepper endanger – a man regularly ridiculed and humiliated?
Because Andrew Lepper had access to any knowledge, unfortunately he acted carelessly with this knowledge. He trusted the incorrect people, I talk here with all work about the patron Ryszard Kuciński. And the finale is what it is. Andrew Lepper trusted the incorrect man, and this man was on the military peculiar services belt.
What was the knowledge?
Mainly about the gas scam of the century, i.e. the gas contract of Poland with Russia, signed by Waldemar Pawlak.
There was besides a version about tapes from Smolensk, which Andrzej Lepper was to pass on to Jarosław Kaczyński. He died 3 days before his appointment with the president of PiS...
I've heard quite a few things about what Lepper knew. As for the Smolensk case, I have no knowledge. I will say openly: my cognition is mostly a derivative of the cognition of peculiar service officers, and in the case of unknown themes of life and circumstances of the death of Andrzej Lepper is simply a derivative of the cognition of Major ABW Tomasz Budzyński, while Tomasz Budzyński had about Andrzej Lepper the cognition that Lepper had about himself. In my book, I show in item how Tomasz Budzyński acted as head of the ABW delegation in Lublin. Budzyński dealt not only with counterintelligence, but besides with the alleged shallow interview on the Ukrainian and Belarusian side. I don't want to talk besides much, but sometimes these actions could trust on, to be gentle, working on the border of law. There is nothing to be outraged about – whether we like it or not, all the peculiar services of the planet do so and take action on the border of law or even beyond that boundary. Of course, this is not mentioned and the public is not informed. But it is. For example, it is about setting up wiretaps in rooms, houses, apartments, offices, hotels, frequently illegally, that is, about surveillance. About this peculiar case we are talking about, I can't and I don't want to say besides much, but mostly speaking, the ABW has acquired cognition of Lepper comparable to what he himself knew about himself. Tomasz Budzyński knew almost everything about Lepper, and above all – what Lepper had and what he intended to usage to return to politics, what he wanted to clean up his criminal cases and what plans he had. This cognition is hard evidence that Andrew Lepper was the last individual who wanted to kill herself. He was a man who had many plans, many hopes, but besides knew that he had materials and cognition that, if he utilized them, could carry him to a large policy back, but also, if he utilized in an unskillable way, could bury him a metre and a half underground. He knew that. And he talked about it with Tomasz Sakiewicz due to the fact that he hoped that Tomasz Sakiewicz would arrange a gathering with Jarosław Kaczyński. It was expected to happen, but it didn't. Lepper was murdered earlier.
Can you tell me more about this?
Lepper spoke to Sakiewicz to prepare the ground for his gathering with Jarosław Kaczyński. Lepper was to give Kaczyński, among others, recordings on the scenes of preparing the gas contract. I'm not ruling out that he might besides have cognition of another things. possibly he did. But I don't know that.
So it's possible that the accumulation of this information could be part of any game around Andrew Lepper and undermine his credibility?
I can't regulation anything out. In my books, I'm trying to operate on what I have evidence for, and what in the event of a subpoena or prosecutor's office, I'll be able to pass in evidence. It's the only thing that allows me to defend myself so effectively for many years. The same is actual of the death of Andrzej Lepper. As far as the gas contract is concerned, here's the hard evidence. As far as another issues are concerned, I have no knowledge, and I do not want to confirm or deny them.
Can you tell me more about the gas contract that proved fatal to Andrew Lepper?
If I were to say more, I would enter the function of Tomasz Budzyński. Let's wait for his statement. Then possibly we will uncover any things to the public. For now, I do not want to spoil what we have been working on for so long and what possibly after our evidence in the prosecutor's office and after the release of Tomasz Budzyński from the work to keep the state secret will be explained.
I hope that the deposition by Tomasz Budzyński in the prosecutor's office will make matters decision forward. But if they are submitted and before the investigation is initiated, we make a mistake – all work can be broken. It is not “just” to explain the circumstances of the death of Andrzej Lepper. It's about what can be explained on this crime. And that's the clou of the story.
Aren't you afraid you'll be met by any “series suicide”?
Anyone with common sense must have different fears. But I was expected to be a multiple offender due to the fact that I got a fewer indictments. After it turned out to be hard to make me a criminal, they tried to make me crazy. I've obtained evidence from 4 forensic experts. For the last 9 years, I've had a 1000 mouths. If there was a kind individual next to me, people would immediately appear around me who made me a black drunk. I was led to a suicide attempt. erstwhile individual has come all this way, they don't worry about anything anymore. I am comforted that if a brick fell on my head now in a wooden church, the public would be even more curious in my books than at present. I think that people who have done this to me over the years besides know that doing me physical harm would be a “advertisement” of my books. And that's not what they want. Of course, I do not want specified a “reclamation” either. I think that me and Tomasz Budzyński have already touched this border, for which peace begins. I know my opponents are people who have already destroyed many people and many are able to destruct them, but I am not afraid anymore. I know that speaking of Pro Civila, I put myself at hazard to people no protection in the planet would save me, but I trusted God and defended myself only with the truth. I know it was my trust in God that made things consecutive after the hardest hours. It is actual – it is not that everything is going smoothly. But it's slow straightening. Tomasz Budzyński went through the same thing. We've joined forces and worked together. We compose more books, they're next, we can do it.
What kind of books will they be?
"ABW" and "Dangerous Relationships of Sławomir Petelicki".
You say "Dangerous unions of Sławomir Petelicki". According to the authoritative version, the general committed suicide on 16 June 2012, on Friday evening erstwhile everyone was absorbed by an crucial match of Polish football team. Was it suicide or what, a serial suicide?
I don't want to get ahead of myself. It's besides soon. But I'll say this: Agnieszka Petelicka – the widow of General, came to me in 2012 erstwhile she read the book By the power of lawlessness and asked to compose a book about her husband. I said I'd take it, but I request to know that I don't compose customized books, and it won't be a laurel, that I'm just going to compose what I'm going to get to, that I'm going to show good and bad in this publication. She said she knew and she agreed. Although she did not give me any details at the time, I felt that she was afraid of something. For a fewer years, the case is stuck. In early December 2016, she called me and invited me and Tomek Budzyński to the Christmas Eve of GROM. She asked if we were inactive curious in this book. I said yes. She asked us to compose an honest book. She introduced us to GROM soldiers as authors of a book showing simply the truth, discovering unknown facts about the life and death of Sławomir Petelicki.
That was the beginning and past of this book. But as for the answer to your question, I do not want to go ahead. We agreed with Agnieszka Petelicka that we would not talk about the details of this book for the time being. We're inactive at the beginning of work, and we won't be talking about this book until the fall erstwhile we're done working on it. The only thing I can say is that it will truly present unknown facts about the life and death of Gen. Sławomir Petelicki – the fact and only the truth. I think, based on what we already have, I can tell you that this is going to be a very interesting book.
From what you're saying, there are inactive WSI or Pro Civili people in public space that we don't know about...
Of course they are. And everyone who thinks that after winning the PiS the political situation has changed and now everything will go easily, simply and pleasantly, that the old arrangement means nothing anymore, are in a gigantic error. After all, thousands of invisible leashes, strings, leading to people of all political options, to all authorities, together (which I am peculiarly sorry to say) with any people of the Church—very esteemed priests, have not been broken off. They exist, they inactive affect what is here and now. I'm an optimist, but I'm not a hurraoptimist, that the Lepper case will be easy. I know who you can figure out in the background and in the end of this case. But I hope this can begin. And end it. Even if in our reality past inactive translates into what is.
What advice, then?
As much transparency as possible in public life. uncover all these annexes. uncover classified collections, secret files, the case of Fr Popieluszko, the fact about Bronisław Komorowski. choice up those leashes, break all those strings. It's only then that you can be tempted to be normal. I'm looking forward to it. And I know I'm not the only one.
Aldona Zaorska spoke to Wojciech Sumlinski
"Warsaw Newspaper" March 17, 2017
