Deputy Minister of Justice: Mr Romanowski in Hungary is simply a prisoner

• Deputy Minister Mazur assures that the settlements of the politicians of the erstwhile government who committed the violation of the law will take place, only that it takes time
• — You can't put people in jail in bulk to make us worse than the PiS, he says.
• He stresses that it cannot be excluded that those occupying illegal institutions, specified as the politicised KRS or the TK, can in future not only respond criminally, but besides be forced to return the collected funds, i.e. salaries and allowances
• As regards budget money for the Law and Justice, Deputy Minister Mazur says plainly: no court has issued a decision to pay that money, and no legal body should recognise specified “judgment”

Magda Gałczyńska, Onet: People are angry. You, the rulings and the Ministry of Justice.

Judge Dariusz Mazur, Deputy Minister of Justice: Why?

I think it's obvious. due to the fact that these evil symbols of the regulation of the Law and Justice, i.e. Mr Obietek, Wąsik, Kamiński, walk unpunished in Strasbourg and Brussels as Euro MPs and laughter at citizens in the face. And you can't do anything. You can get the impression that there is general infirmity and “nothing can be done” in government, especially in your ministry. And people are waiting to settle. For instance, that Obietek for public money, Orlen's money improved his smile. What? Nothing.

Come on, come on. On Monday, the European Parliament is due to deal with my boss, Adam Bodnar's request to waive immunity. Not the teeth, but the possible surveillance of political opponents for money from Orlen. A As for Mr Kamiński and Mr Wąsik, well, in the question of the alleged land scandal for which they were sentenced to prison sentences, they were pardoned in January by president Andrzej Duda. But this pardon does not cover another areas of their activity, even those related to Pegasus and how it was used. And if it were found that both gentlemen had any part in it, and what they had been doing, and that their actions were not lawful, I do not uncertainty that they would be held accountable for it. I would besides like to stress that currently, at the request of the prosecutor's office, 5 applications are being made by the European Parliament to waive the immunity of Euro MPs, 3 applications for the waiver of parliamentary immunity are being made by the Polish Sejm, 1 of the Members has himself waived immunity, and the erstwhile wellness minister Adam Niedzielski has been unduly sentenced by the court, among others, to imprisonment with conditional suspension of its execution for violation of the GDPR provisions. It's a beautiful quantifiable consequence of the prosecution's work. The handling of cases against politicians, due to their immunity, is more hard and much more time-consuming than another cases.

These are further promises and announcements for the future, and the reality is glistening. All of this is far besides slow to justice the general public. It slips so that — according to any media messages — The Prime Minister was expected to scare Minister Bodnar into giving him Roman Giertych as Deputy Ministerto make it work faster and more effectively on billing.

I have no idea, but it seems to be just a media fact. I full realize the social emotions that are behind this alternatively than another perception of the accounting reality, due to the fact that erstwhile you hear that The Justice Fund, which was expected to aid victims of crime, was converted under the governments of the Law and Solidarity Poland to a crucial degree into an electoral and surveillance fundIt's something that offends all citizen. Similarly, erstwhile you hear about giant sums embezzled by the National Centre for investigation and improvement is Government strategical Reserve Agency. And I agree that it is possible to feel anger under the slogan that the people liable are "not yet sitting." But if the current power had started wholesale, without gathering evidence, without completing the formalities, putting people into detention, it would have become worse than the Law and Justice Office. I would like to remind you that this kind of procedural shortcut was tried for the erstwhile authority in relation to Counselor Giertych, trying to interrogate him erstwhile he was in the hospital, and, to put it mildly, no 1 was delighted. From a period of earlier regulation of law and justice, I besides remember proceeding a female in the mediate of a serious economical matter, which the Strasbourg tribunal then found humiliating and inhumane treatment, and our country was forced to pay compensation. If we were to take this kind of action now, it would be a dictatorship of lawlessness. Moreover, this would be effective in the short term, as subsequently incorrect evidence gathered could be contested by courts.

So we gotta wait?

We work all the time. For more than 15 years I was a justice in the territory Court, I ruled in criminal matters and I received any truly large cases, including serious economical crimes. And I don't remember any of them collecting evidence for little than a year. specified cases frequently affect securing and examining, including experts, hundreds and sometimes thousands of documents, questioning and confronting many witnesses. All of this must take place in the conditions of judicial review of a series of investigations, erstwhile the files circulate between the institutions. All activities are carried out in compliance with the procedural rights of suspects. In addition, in many of these cases, suspects are doing everything to torpedo the proceedings.

Like who, for example, from the current politicians?

Well, Marcin Romanowski first declared that he would not obstruct proceedings, then hid behind parliamentary immunity, immunity from the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, finally fled to Hungary. So the anticipation that immediately after the current government took over the courts would be flooded with a wave of indictments in specified serious matters was at least unrealistic. This isn't about a proverbial pear hat. Especially since Adam Bodnar as lawyer General had to first heal the prosecutor's office, which was mastered by those cast in key positions of the denominations of erstwhile power. This was not a one-time action involving the appointment of the National Prosecutor correctly, but a cascade action consisting, among another things, of substantively justified changes to the heads of prosecutors of the lower order.

"Mr. Romanowski is simply a prisoner in Hungary"

And you've taken it all back? The DA's office?

The "reflection of the prosecution" is not a appropriate term, as it suggests taking over for submission. In the meantime, Adam Bodnar as lawyer General does not interfere with the procedural activities of individual prosecutors. So I would describe his actions as intended to heal the prosecutor's office, to guarantee that its aim is to defend the regulation of law and not to defend the interests of a peculiar political group. I am besides not precisely the appropriate addressee of this question, due to the fact that I am liable for the judiciary in the Ministry of Justice, and since Minister Bodnar closely separates the sphere of his administrative power over the courts from acting as lawyer General, I have cognition of the prosecutor's office exclusively from the media. It's only so much easier for me to justice what happens in the D.A.'s office that I look at it from the point of view of nearly 30 years of direct cooperation with the D.A. as a judge. In my opinion, the process of healing the prosecutor's office is inactive in progress, due to the fact that its corruption has reached very deep. Fortunately, it is not that “there is no 1 to do” due to the fact that they have inactive been able, experienced and wise, independent prosecutors whom the Law and Justices have demoted. These people are slow returning to appropriate positions and the lawyer General can trust on them.

Yeah, well, despite those words, the D.A.'s office had a spectacular screw-up. Marcin Romanowski, a fishy of a 100 million PLN fraud connected with the Justice Fund, just ran off to Hungary. And you, the Ministry and the D.A., are helpless due to the fact that Viktor Orban gave Romano asylum.

I don't think the D.A.'s office is working decently here. The proceedings against the associate of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe were of a precedent nature, most experts felt that the immunity of a associate of that body did not confer any protection with respect to activities not related to the function of the Council of Europe body. erstwhile it became apparent that the Parliamentary Assembly was in a different position, the prosecution immediately made a motion and led to the waiver of immunity as shortly as possible. The European Arrest Warrant was then issued behind Mr Romanowski. And just due to the fact that he is hiding in 1 EU country does not mean that if he goes to another, he will not be released. Which, in practice, means that Mr. Romanowski is any kind of prisoner at Balaton. It cannot decision from Hungary, due to the fact that as shortly as it appears in another EU country, Poland will most likely be released immediately.

But for now, your hands are tied?

No, it's not. The Polish government takes various actions at EU and diplomatic level. It is besides possible for the European Commission to launch an anti-infringement procedure against Hungary urgently. This could mean a trial before the EU Court of Justice (TEU) and serious consequences.

What? And when, due to the fact that things before the TEU, unfortunately, last a long time.

The EC may initiate a procedure under Article 7 of the EU Treaty for breaching the work of a Treaty associate State to exclude Hungary from the ENA scheme. And that's terrible for any country, due to the fact that they're incapable to bring to themselves, before the justice system, any possible criminal who can escape from the borders of the country. The TEU can besides impose powerful financial penalties and may besides benefit from a conditionality mechanism, i.e. making the payment of funds dependent on the fulfilment of membership obligations. All this must be borne by the Hungarian authorities, with all these mechanisms have been activated, so they have been trained in relation to PolandSo there's a chance they'll work faster this time. Will they sacrifice thousands, if not millions of euros — and so much can be paid by the TEU — for 1 Mr. Romanowski? I'd have any doubts.

“Morawiecki on the back of the property in Hungary will not take”

Because Orban himself said a Polish colony may be established in BudapestDo you anticipate to follow in Romanowski's footsteps, Mateusz Morawiecki? He is about to hear allegations about the organisation of the alleged enveloped elections, and that his signature appears on the executives of these elections documents, the substance seems easy to prove. Or can he run over Balaton for you? Are you ready for this?

Such a situation I can consider purely hypothetically, due to the fact that I have no cognition of trial regarding the possible criminal activity of the erstwhile Prime Minister. However, I do not think Mr Morawiecki will choose this path. I will say brutally, he has besides many valuable properties in Poland to just leave them, and he will not take them with him in Hungary. With respect to Prime Minister Morawiecki, it should besides be pointed out that the prosecutor's office, erstwhile applying for the waiver of his immunity, did not request his consent to imprisonment. All the more reason to run.

But maybe, like Obietko, you can convert everything into a wife, a family?

Maybe only the D.A. will notice. There is simply a legal solution, specified as extended confiscation. And I am not saying that this will be the case with Mr Morawiecki – I do not know that. But you can collect these properties, this property, which is besides safe in the people to whom it was prescribed, if there is simply a suspicion that the funds for their acquisition were of criminal origin. In specified cases, the alleged reversed burden of proof applies, i.e. the fishy must show that all his material possessions have been legally acquired. The D.A. doesn't gotta prove it, it's adequate to fishy they're from a crime. And since that's the stake, I don't think we'll see a individual with quite a few immovable property in Poland too.

Law and Justice as a criminal period? “This solution has already been applied erstwhile in Poland”

There are voices, the most extremist ones, that the full period of the regulation of the Law and Justice would should be considered a criminal period and would gotta hold all those who were then in power in bulk. Is that even real?

In principle, criminal law is based on individual responsibility, not group liability. There are, of course, rules on the activities of organised crime groups, where participation in specified a group is simply a separate crime, independent of those committed by the group as part of its activities. specified a solution exists in law, with only erstwhile in Poland for politicians at the top of power. It was about the period of regulation of Gen. Wojciech Jaruzelski. An organized crime group was deemed to have exercised power at the time. So the legal structure itself exists. According to media reports, allegations of action within the criminal group are to be made against those who acted within the framework so-called troll farm in the Ministry of Justice, who was active in campaigning for net hatred towards the unruly judges who were to be directed by the then Deputy Minister Łukasz Piebiak, as well as against those who embezzled funds from the Justice Fund, including Marcin Romanowski, to whom this had already happened.

Will members of the illegal KRS or SN return money from salaries and diets? “You can think about it”

This is about your pains, your failures, your loose ends. Thus, the illegal National Judicial Council — inactive in operation, illegal neojudges in the ultimate Court and completely politically seized by the Law and Justices Constitutional Court...

There is nothing we can do in the statutory way, due to the fact that the draft amendment of the Act on the National Judicial Council has been blocked by the president and the defective Constitutional Court, and the people around the president have clearly stated that there will be no acceptance of it for the bill on the healing of the legal position of incorrectly appointed judges, whose draft is almost ready.

Is it possible that all those persons who illegally exercised functions in unrecognized organs, specified as the alleged neoKRS, neoisba in the SN or in the politicized TK may, after a possible change in the Presidential Palace and amending the laws, be held liable so that they will gotta return all independently collected salaries or diets since, say, 2018? That would go millions, due to the fact that I'm not certain those who are illegally called have much to regret, drawing on public money..

This may look like a reasonable solution, looking from the alleged right viewpoint. However, in order for this to happen, first these people must be proven breaking the law. And those who sit in these illegal bodies must first be dealt with criminally and disciplinaryly. On the another hand, the decisions of the criminal courts are binding on civilian courts, so after the conviction of specified persons it would be possible to order them to be reimbursed unduly. It's a long road, but it's feasible.

Who would answer a penalty?

I won't be here, as Minister Ziobro utilized to be, deciding on anyone's responsibility, due to the fact that it's not my role. Let me just talk about situations that have been widely described in the media. For example, the work of those who have failed to comply with the decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union and have, contrary to the law, defrosted the operation of the Disciplinary Chamber of the SN, which led to the illegal suspension of 4 judges by this Chamber. It is crucial to seriously consider whether an offence under Article 231 of the Criminal Code has been committed here, namely a failure to fulfil obligations and an excess of powers. The same plea may apply to those who are already in that disciplined Disciplinary Chamber who have contributed to unlawful repression of judges, suspending them in the performance of their duties, or to those who have submitted unfounded disciplinary charges to the judges and have applied for their suspension. The names of these people are known. Similarly, the application of Article 231 kk can besides be considered in the context of the actions of the recently-director of the Constitutional Tribunal, which was to manipulate the judicial compositions so that the judgments would benefit the power of the day. You gotta thin over all this, what the D.A. is doing and will proceed to do.

Should all these people who are presently occupying illegal bodies, specified as the alleged neo-KRS or neo-izba in the SN, after a possible change of the president and implementation of the fresh laws, stay in a judicial state? Or should they just be expelled from the judiciary?

If the presumption is that we are to live in a regulation of law, then everyone is equal to the law. And if it is found that individual has violated the law by acting against the public interest, he should be responsible. In all dimension, besides professional. Persons who straight contributed to undermining the regulation of law in Poland, if their actions were a criminal offence, should be held liable as criminal as disciplinary. And within the latter, the most severe punishment for judges is the expulsion from the judiciary. It's not revenge, it's action essential for normality to return. Did you break the law? You'll take responsibility. I point out that I am referring to the work of an independent and impartial court, while ensuring all procedural guarantees, including the right of defence.

I'm going to ask you about a case that's been in the mediate of a political and legal brawl for at least a fewer weeks. Budget money for the PiS. The State Electoral Commission argues, based on the ruling of the alleged neo-librium of the SN, that these measures should be paid out. The finance minister is stalling and he's not going to pay. What should happen?

Let me get this straight. In my opinion, the Chamber of Extraordinary Control and Public Affairs, which concluded that money belongs to the Law and Justice, is not an independent and impartial court shaped by the Act, either under the Polish Constitution or under EU or global law. So, the ruling of that authority should not be recognised by legal authorities of the State. That's it.