Should we fear Slovak nationalism? And why don't the Slovaks like the West? Leszek Jażdżewski (Fundacja Liberte!) talks to Michal Vašečka, programme manager of the Bratislava Institute of Politics. Since 2012, he has been a typical of Slovakia in the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI) of the Council of Europe. He is besides president of the Drafting Council of Denník N. From 2002 to 2017, he worked at the Faculty of Social Sciences of Masaryka University in Brno and from 2006 to 2009 at the University of Comenius.
Leszek Jazdzewski (LJ): What is the future of Slovak democracy today?
Michal Vasecka (MV): This position is very bleak at the minute and has many factors. Currently, it is not only Prime Minister Robert Fico as an authoritarian leader from day to day strengthens his power in Slovakia, but besides the public opinion and Slovak value system, which are very anti-Western (but not necessarily anti-EU), anti-liberal, pro-Russian and pro-putin.
Moreover, I am alternatively skeptical besides due to Brussels' reactions and the way in which it is mostly incapable to deal with regimes specified as Fico in Slovakia, Orban in Hungary or – in the past – Kaczyński in Poland. Unfortunately, Brussels simply found itself in an uncomfortable situation erstwhile people like Orban and Fico fundamentally blackmail Brussels by saying, "We don't truly care about Ukraine or war."
By the way, the Slovaks are not as pro-Russian as many say, so we can support your Ukrainian consensus, but we have 1 condition: do not criticize us and, most importantly, do not cut any structural funds and EU cohesion. If you do not treat us besides harshly, we will again become 1 big, happy European family.
However, there is simply a striking difference between Viktor Orban and Robert Fico. The first 10 years ago declared that he wanted to be in the vanguard of a future non-liberal Europe. Thanks to this, he has very good contacts in Italy, France, Germany and many another countries. It supports Italian Brothers, AfD in Germany and the Marine Le Pen National Unity in France. He even established a squad of advisers in Washington, D.C., and tries to influence developments within the Republican Party.
During the last debate with Kamala Harris, we heard from Donald Trump that there is simply a fantastic leader in Europe with whom Trump has fantastic connections – and seemingly he meant Viktor Orban. Viktor Orban is so playing a game that does not full reflect the fact that Hungary is simply a comparatively tiny country. Meanwhile, Viktor Orban seems to inactive represent the original, large Hungary.
Meanwhile, Robert Fico is simply a small different. He is not curious in abroad policy – and he was never curious in it. In fact, he never wanted influence anywhere but Slovakia. Even erstwhile he had the chance to influence politics in the Czech Republic – due to the natural links between Prague and Bratislava – he refused. Moreover, he does not realize many things about abroad policy, which is actually even worse. Its aim is simply to strengthen its power in Slovakia – in the smallest country of Central Europe.
The Slovaks won the 20th century. From an insignificant, tiny and almost non-existent nation, they became a country that was very successful. Slovakia has survived the 20th century, including planet War II, but many Slovaks inactive remember it. We only succeeded due to the fact that we tried to play on all fronts and we never truly took a moral attitude that clearly supported individual – due to the fact that erstwhile we did, it was a mistake.
Since then, Slovaks have been trying to play on all fronts for the past 3 30 years and have equally good relations with both Berlin, Brussels, Washington, Moscow and even Belgrade and Zagreb. Actually, though it may not be moral, it is simply a right strategy for specified a tiny country.
The problem is that Slovakia becomes a completely unbelievable partner for the West. Basically, this means that in many ways it is not part of the West, which not only raises questions from our Western partners, but besides has very concrete consequences. Practically no 1 cooperates with Slovak intelligence, no 1 wants contact with Slovak justice, etc. All of this has very circumstantial consequences.
LJ: Is there adequate people and institutions in Slovakia to argue the government? Or is it that much depends on states and governments that citizens cannot be mobilized and institutions cannot face the current threat?
MV: And here we have both good news and bad news. The bad news is that Slovaks as a tiny nation, a tiny country, went through respective stages of collective experience. Remember, if you quit and focus on survival, sooner or later you will benefit from it.
This approach represents a striking difference compared to Poland. any Poles may not pay any attention to this. Meanwhile, in 1938-39 Slovakia surrendered. We didn't fight the Germans. The same happened in 1968 in Czechoslovakia due to the fact that we did not fight and we did not even declare that we do not agree with the invasion of the russian Union. The Slovaks drew their own conclusions from all this – although it may be bad, it is never tragic.
The same is happening now, with the legacy of the alleged "normalization". After 1968, the communists wanted to normalize the situation and thus, for 20 years they fundamentally unleashed social dynamics in our society. During these 20 years Czechoslovakia and Poland have been very different countries in this respect. For example, we had quite a few food. Czechoslovakia was a comparatively prosperous part of the east bloc during this period, but at the same time it was not the happiest barracks of this concentration camp (often Hungary was called the “luckiest barracks of the camp”).
Czechoslovakia was not very happy, but it was abundant with us – and Slovaks remember that. At the moment, we clearly see that erstwhile the government radically cleans ministries, erstwhile people are fired from different positions in police and judiciary, many people quit and do not protest – and that is bad news due to the fact that there is simply a legacy that inactive affects us.
Now, good news. Unlike in Hungary, erstwhile Orban came to power and slow but systematically stripped civilian society, media, and even businesses of different rights, Slovakia went through the same process in the 1990s. Slovakia has caused problem under Vladimir Mečiara (1992–1998), and now Fico is again doing many things that took place at the time.
Meanwhile, civilian society, the media and many another segments of society are ready to argue Fico. We experience feelings déjà vuThat's why we're very delicate to certain signals. We respond very quickly. Secondly, in peculiar the media and civilian society are ready, including in method terms.
In comparison, erstwhile Viktor Orban got free of the “Népszabadság”, the leading paper in Hungary, he besides succeeded due to the fact that “Népszabadság” was not ready to fight. It was not noted that something had changed in Hungary and that the paper might have targeted a fresh power.
However, many Slovak media are already aware of the fight. It's a terrible fight right now. any private tv stations do the same. And we don't know what the consequence of this clash is. Nevertheless, many leading portals and journals seem to be ready for violent attacks.
In fact, the problem at present in Slovakia is that unlike any another countries where disinformation or alternate media can be powerful, they inactive do not dominate the sphere of information. Slovakia found itself in the eye of a cyclone of conspiracy theories many years ago, and any of this information and alternate media became even more crucial than any of the main mainstream media.
Now, Slovak Democrats, media and civilian society must fight on 2 fronts. First against Fico and second against the power of disinformation media that Fico supports. And abruptly we see that the power of disinformation media, very frequently supported by Russia, can be even more destructive than the actions of Robert Fico himself.
LJ: What is the importance of Slovak identity? How is it utilized to strengthen Robert Fico's regime?
MV: Slovak identity is inactive crucial for all the layers of society in Slovakia. Since 1944, various segments of society have been playing dirty games in this area. First of all, Slovak fascists, members of the People's Party, from the very beginning described the Slovak National Uprising as a coup against the Slovak Republic, against Slovakia and against Slovakia itself – simply due to the fact that it was carried out under the Czechoslovakian flags.
Already in 1944 the uprising declared that it wanted to recreate Czechoslovakia. And of course, it was a fight not only with local collaborators, but besides with Nazi Germans. On the another hand, all aged man in Slovakia remembers how the communists fundamentally declared that they were the most crucial part of the opposition (it was very akin in Poland, where the communists after 1945 claimed that they were at the head of the opposition against Germany, even referring to it as the "communist opposition movement"). Although people never truly believed it, this kind of propaganda spread over many decades affected the general perception of this process.
When, after 1989, Slovakia began to talk freely about the uprising, society became very divided. For Slovak Democrats, the Slovak National Uprising is very crucial for a very simple reason: it was practically the only time Slovakia fought for independent Slovakia. The Slovaks were on the side of progress, on the right side of history.
In 1848, erstwhile Hungarians led by Lajos Kossuth fought Vienna, the most conservative and anti-democratic force in Central Europe, The Slovaks joined Vienna against Kossuth's bourgeois revolution, believing Vienna would then give something to the Slovaks. (What evidently did not happen.) The Slovaks did not stand, so to speak, on the right side of history. The same was actual during planet War I.
Furthermore, in 1939 Slovakia announced the existence of a Slovak state, which was a puppet state of Nazi Germany. Moreover, the Slovak fascist state invaded Poland in 1939 along with Nazi Germany. In general, Slovakia (with Germany) was 1 of those countries that sparked planet War II. Slovakia embarked on the east front to fight the russian Union.
In summary, without the Slovak National Uprising Slovakia would be defeated – like Hungary, Germany or Japan. However, thanks to the uprising, the Slovaks clearly declared that they were on the side of the russian Union, the United Kingdom and the United States and – abruptly – the Slovaks were victorious. Not to mention the fact that Slovak soldiers marched even in the parade in London in 1945, which Polish soldiers were deprived of.
The Slovak National Uprising is so the most crucial component in the past of their pro-Western pro-democracy. Democratic Slovaks have barely anything better to do. As a result, they are attacked on 2 fronts – on the 1 hand by fascist movements and political parties who claim that it was a coup against the nation, and on the another hand by erstwhile communists specified as Robert Fico, who effort to bargain the legacy of the Slovak National Uprising and even exploit it against the West.
This is what Fico did during this year's celebration of the anniversary of the Banská Bystrica uprising. He openly attacked the West, the European Union, NATO and the United States, saying that Slovakia has one more time had its opinion and that it is not accepted by superpowers again - as it was not accepted in the past.
So, of course, the fight continues, but what we experienced this year in Banská Bystrica was alternatively unpleasant, besides due to the fact that it seemed that the ceremony was directed from Moscow – its aesthetics itself was very problematic. This is what we saw in Slovakia for the first time.
There seems to be inactive a large sentiment for the communist era. And remember, Robert Fico was in the past a associate of the Communist organization (although low rank).
LJ: How do people remember the first Slovak Republic, and how do communist times, erstwhile Slovakia was in asymmetrical relations with the Czech part of Czechoslovakia? How did these experiences form the Slovak national identity? And how has political discourse evolved around these issues over the past 30 years?
MV: All of this is very important. As I mentioned earlier, Slovakia developed slow but systematically throughout the 20th century. During planet War II, thanks to the fact that the Slovak State had, at least on paper, a space for independent politics, the state benefited from the war due to the fact that it was not straight involved.
A lot of people inactive remember. Slovakia has passed from a time erstwhile it was a very, very mediocre country in the past to a time of comparative prosperity during the war. Even erstwhile there was hunger in any parts of Europe during the war, the Slovaks never experienced it – but for the last winter of 1944-1945, which they inactive remember.
This may be very hard for Poles to understand. erstwhile in Slovakia my grandpa studied medicine at the university from 1939 to 1945, during these six years of war people in Poland (and another parts of Europe) could not realize how this was possible at all. However, Slovakia did. Although most Slovaks disagreed with the regime, they inactive remember any good moments from that period.
The same applies to communist times, especially the 1970s and 1980s in Slovakia. Although in any countries communism no longer functioned "correctly" (e.g. Romania, Bulgaria or Poland), the standard of surviving of Slovaks increased rather dramatically. so Slovakia, as part of Czechoslovakia, was least prepared for the 1989 changes – unlike what happened in Poland, Hungary or the Czech part of Czechoslovakia.
Overall, the Slovaks were comparatively satisfied with the government and the only thing they wanted to realize was why “these communists” did not let them to go to church and why boundaries were closed. However, there was no desire to change the system, which surely took place in Poland and the Czech part of Czechoslovakia.
In a sense, Slovakia inactive benefits from this poisoned fruit. What unites those who have affirmative memories connected with both the fascist and communist states is their way of seeing authoritarianism. All these people are simply reluctant to even think about democratic Slovakia. They are anti-Western and to any degree pro-Russian. That's why Robert Fico was a genius (in the negative sense of the word), due to the fact that he actually combined these 2 feelings.
Robert Fico combined sentiment with Josef Tiso (a erstwhile president, priest and statesman who fought for Slovak autonomy in the Czechoslovak people) with sentiment to Gustáv Husák (who was the president of Czechoslovakia in the 1970s and 1980s and a character who normalized Czechoslovakia). And all of a sudden, all of this has become a truly problematic, toxic mixture of everything that is fundamentally against the West. All this is very akin to what we experience in Russia, what we saw in Ukraine during the transformation and what is little visible in Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary. This phenomenon is inactive there, although it is not so visible.
LJ: Looking at Slovakia's history, there seems to be a certain sense of being a victim in Slovakia. At the same time, there were moments of national awakening. Can Slovakia experience modernisation of its own mentality alongside material modernization in Slovakia?
MV: That's a very good sociological question. The answer is no. I can't believe this is gonna go hand in hand. For the past 30 years, we've had plenty of evidence for this. Indeed, Slovakia was making advancement comparatively quickly. Now it is simply a country where people drive BMWs and Mercedes (as in Poland). However, culturally modernity is not coming.
We see a increasing gap between the structural and cultural dimension of modernity. The only thing that could change is if Slovakia had survived a shock. It will surely not be a shock of the economical downturn, due to the fact that Slovakia will endure economical difficulties in the coming years, and I am convinced of that. However, even specified a challenge will not change the current landscape.
This can change the dramatic problems of Slovakia's position in the European Union and NATO. If our presence in these structures is threatened and people realize that they may lose solid ground under their feet, then something can change. Otherwise, I'm alternatively skeptical.
All in all, before it gets better, it's gonna get worse. But it is very crucial that we talk about this in a European context – we cannot let Slovakia to follow in the footsteps of Hungary.
Michal Vašečka was a guest of the last edition of the Freedom Games, a festival of ideas organized annually in Łódź. This year's edition took place on 18-20 October at EC1 Łódź. The co-organiser of the festival is the European Liberal Forum.
This podcast was produced by the European Liberal Forum in collaboration with the Movieno Liberal Social and the Liberté Foundation!, with the financial support of the European Parliament. Neither the European Parliament nor the European Liberal Forum are liable for the content of the podcast nor for any way of utilizing it.
Podcast is besides available on platforms Sound, Apple Podcast, Stitcher and Spotify
Dr. Olga Łabendowicz translated from English
Read English at 4liberty.eu
