Włodzimierz Czarzasty for naTemat: TVP should not be liquidated. It will inactive be objective

Zdjęcie: Włodzimierz Czarzasty, współprzewodniczący Nowej Lewicy. fot. Beata Zawrzel/REPORTER / Gabriela Wróblewska


- In retrospect, I see that the gathering with Prime Minister Morawiecki regarding KPO was a marketing mistake. The very negotiations on what should be included in the KPO were right, but the determination of this could have been more thoughtful. There was no. And we got our ass kicked for that, says Włodzimierz Czarzasty, deputy marshal of the Sejm and co-chairman of the fresh Left, in an interview with naTemat.pl. Anna Dryjańska: The 3rd word of PiS awaits us? Włodzimierz Czarzasty: No. It is not possible. Where do you get that confidence? I am 100 percent convinced that the democratic opposition will win these elections. In 1.5 years, the Left will co-rule. Optimist Mr. Opposition organization leaders who are unsure about this should not be leaders. So you are certain due to the fact that you are convinced. Of course, I can be accused of arrogance, but this forecast is based on political experience. erstwhile the Left fell out of the Sejm a fewer years ago, it had the face of Magdalena Ogórek, debts and 2 percent support, I was certain that in 4 years we would return to the Sejm. And that's how it happened. And now I know that the democratic opposition will win this election. And we will win them. With 1 list? 2 blocks? organization lists? Half a year before the elections, large-scale investigation should be done to show which form of launch will be the most effective in cutting off PiS from power. And we will support this form. Pragmatism is needed here. Will the fresh Left submit a draft of terminating the concordat after the elections? Yes. Who should become Prime Minister? I am a statesman, so I believe that for the good of the state, for its peace and stability, the head of government should be the leader of the strongest opposition party. So Donald Tusk? If the Civic Platform gets the best consequence and its president is Donald Tusk, then yes. It always ends badly for you erstwhile it's controlled from the backseat. Either you take work or you don't. The second anticipation is simply a strategy error. Just look at MP Jarosław Kaczyński. "Black Prime Minister". I don't believe you don't dream about it. There is simply a very simple method for a man of the Left to be prime minister. I keep telling my colleagues: it is adequate to be the strongest opposition party. erstwhile we accomplish this, we will nominate the prime minister. huh? all force in the country should know its place. "Just be" is vague. do you have a plan? I am a rational politician. The plan is consistent and does not affect shooting acts or fireworks. The left should be very consistent in what it does. There was a time erstwhile we made any mistakes, we went down in the ratings. But now we've started to rebuild. In May, we jumped to 3rd place. We got up. How? First, we stopped arguing. We have closed the phase of disputes related to the merger of SLD and Spring into Nowa Lewica. We saved the club in the Sejm, which besides includes the Together Party. The malicious say: organization Separately. Are you not concerned? We have a contract signed in blood… very cordial, of course. There are no and there will be no crossovers on this matter. Secondly? Secondly, we submitted a twelve or so very cool bills: well-thought-out, well-talked, creative. For example, the National Housing Program. This is simply a very crucial task for me, besides for emotional reasons. My father was a construction individual all his life. I believe that if the Left – after the adoption of the Constitution, after Poland's accession to the European Union – contributed to solving the housing problem, it would be a large deal. We have besides developed the full taxation system, including VAT, PIT, CIT ... No organization is able to solve all problems, we request to focus on those that are most crucial to us. The right to housing is 1 of the most crucial topics for us. The 3rd thing that made us bounce back in the polls: consistency. We stick to our flagship values and projects, we do not succumb to momentary moods or media storms. The issue of freedom of opinion, number groups, women's rights, social issues, secular state - our attitude is unchanged, even if it is unpopular. Women's rights are very popular right now - for example, the majority of society wants legal abortion. But our position on combating COVID-19 has not been so widely accepted. We were the only ones who were in favour of mandatory vaccinations. We did it due to the fact that it is responsible, due to the fact that liable politicians strive to save people's lives during the epidemic. We were aware that even for any young people who support the Left, mandatory vaccination would be hard to swallow. due to the fact that they don't like having to. We have besides taken a very firm stance on Russia's attack on Ukraine. As European Social Democracy, we point out the mistakes that Scholz and the SPD make towards Putin. The 4th thing that made us bounce back in the polls: we suspended all conflicts. The opposition doesn't argue with each other, and that's good for everyone. What would you say to that part of the Civic Platform supporters who accuse you of being silent allies of PiS? I wouldn't argue with that at all, due to the fact that it's so apparent it's not actual that there's nothing to relate to. However, I know where it came from: the joint vote for the ratification of PLN 780 billion for Poland. "Common Vote". I couldn't imagine any another vote on this matter. The left, as the force that brought Poland into the European Union, behaved responsibly. By the way, barely anyone remembers it now, it's about 780 billion. Everyone is focused on one-third of that amount, the National Recovery Plan. We don't even have that yet. If it wasn't for the Left, there wouldn't be any "yet" or "even", due to the fact that there wouldn't be any money for Poland. Thanks to the Left, European funds will scope Poland after the opposition takes power at the latest. You were accused of voting like PiS. It inactive echoes on Twitter today. PiS voted the same as us! We voted together with PSL and Hołownia. The left is simply a subjective structure and makes its own decisions. Today, we would vote in the same way, due to the fact that the answer to the question of whether it is better for Poland to get PLN 780 billion or not, is apparent to us. However, in retrospect, I see that the gathering with Prime Minister Morawiecki was a marketing mistake. The very negotiations on what should be included in the KPO were right, but the determination of this could have been more thoughtful. There was no. And we got kicked for it. But erstwhile it comes to the very form of KPO proposed by the Left, I am very happy with it. We set a condition: financial aid for the construction of 73,000 flats. Now, thanks to us, it is 1 of the milestones that will go to 10 billion. Nobody will take it distant from us. The plans of the Left, of course, are much bigger. We want 300,000 of these apartments under the nationwide program, but we have already secured 73,000 under KPO. Our vice-president in Włocławek showed how specified apartments are built. Another contribution of the Left to KPO: 5 billion for territory hospitals, so strained by the epidemic. And 1 more thing: thanks to the Left, 30 percent of KPO funds will go straight to local governments. It was the Left who besides made certain that in the alleged The Steering Committee, which oversees the spending of money from the KPO, was attended by representatives of trade unions. I cannot imagine the Left, social democracy, without trade unions. To sum up: we screwed up the form, but the content is our large achievement. So what am I ashamed of? Housing is simply a human right, legal abortion up to 12 weeks after consultation with a doctor, climate protection - Tusk is starting to talk in a left-wing language. do you have a problem? No. Regardless of the intentions behind this, and I like to presume that they are good, Tusk is accustoming his electorate to the fact that the PO will co-rule with the Left. That's first. Secondly: Tusk thus strengthens our demands. All those "scary" things that 10-15 years ago was a large deal. Do you remember how people reacted to the slogan of social justice? "Housing is simply a right, not a commodity"? "Secular State"? No 1 is laughing at it now. The left is the guardian of all articles of the Constitution - including those concerning social rights. Coming back to Donald Tusk: It will be hard for the PO to retreat after his words. And we will not forget: we have drafts ready for all those issues that we have already submitted respective times, and after the triumph of the democratic opposition, we will submit them again. If the Platform does not support our projects - which I do not want to believe - then I promise you that in 2 years I will tell you in item what happened. Now, however, I have an open heart for the full democratic opposition and I admit that the PO refers to these matters in good faith. Why should voters support the Left and not the Platform, if any of your postulates sound similar? due to the fact that we have been making these demands forever and regardless of the results of 1 temper survey. For me, the most crucial thing is that voters support the opposition. And that's it. Do you watch TVP? Sometimes I watch. Do you like going there? I think that if you're a politician, you gotta go to public television, regardless of what you think about it. Everyone understands that - there is no organization that would not appear there. I inactive remember the gathering with SLD activists in Wągrowiec. That was already respective years ago. The atmosphere is good, I do what I can to decision the company, I dance, sing, jump, effort to compression tears, and at 1 point individual asks: "Mr. Chairman, why are you not in the media?". A small surprised, I answer that I was there: yesterday, the day before yesterday ... But there are more specified voices. At this point, my old head starts working: I am asking those who watch TVN24 to rise their hands. Nothing. Then I say: Polsat News. 3 hands up. "So what are you watching?" - I'm asking. "Public TV". That's why you gotta go to TVP and talk your mind. Persuade people. This is the only way we can scope PiS voters and win these elections. erstwhile you were a associate of the National Broadcasting Council, was TVP equally powerfully subordinated to the interests of the ruling party? as hard? NO. To be clear: TVP has never been good, but it has never been as bad as it is now. I frequently wonder about it, due to the fact that it is not only my hobby, but besides my education: I am a postgraduate of journalism at the University of Warsaw. Will it inactive be good with Polish television? I think so. Apparently, the 30 years that have passed since the beginning of the transformation are besides short for civilian society to solve the problem of public media. But it's a substance of time. That optimism again. TVP will be objective. It should definitely not be eliminated. This is 1 of the most powerful instruments that allows you to scope society on a large scale with education, culture, information ... Or with lies, baiting ... That's right, but I'm talking about the ideal. How was the public media in your time? 4 political forces were represented in the National Broadcasting Council, whose composition was shaped by the Sejm, the legislature and the president: SLD, PSL, Civic Platform and PiS. Members of the National Broadcasting Council, in turn, elected media supervisory boards, which appointed management boards. Back then there was more balance due to the fact that respective points of view were represented. Was the National Broadcasting Council depoliticized? No, she wasn't. But it was more pluralistic than it is today. You believe in winning the next elections and in nonsubjective public media. Do you believe in Ukraine's victory? Yes, but I don't know erstwhile that will be. 1 thing is known now: Russia lost this war. Putin has led to a situation in which his country has lost what small credibility it has, and the social democratic governments in Sweden and Finland are deciding to join NATO at an accelerated pace. Until recently, the West had the illusion that Russia could be tamed thanks to economical ties. NO. It does not work like that. At the end of his rule, Putin showed the face of a degenerate, a mass murderer. I am an orthodox supporter of helping Ukraine and sanctions against Russia. As the Left, we have a good evidence on this. If it was essential to support the government on Ukrainian issues, we supported it, if the authorities did something wrong, we called things by their names. erstwhile necessary, we were able to hit the SPD and Scholz, even though they are our European family. A fewer weeks ago, Robert Biedroń made a immense meeting. There were about a 1000 people, including Timmermans and the deputy head of the European Parliament. We besides took the leadership of the organization of European Socialists to Przemyśl. We showed them the rooms where refugees from Ukraine are staying. I saw tears in the eyes of the SPD people. I know they didn't all dry up by the time they got back to Berlin. Yesterday we received the head of the SPD in the Sejm. Do you see Jarosław Gowin in the ruling coalition after the triumph of the democratic opposition? It's a detail. First of all, Gowin has to convince individual to get a place on a list. The Left surely won't take it. I fishy that he will either go to the Civic Platform, where he was erstwhile deputy prime minister, or to the PSL. Before the presidential election, there were rumors that the opposition would nominate him for the talker of the Sejm, and the PiS government would lose its majority. It was so stupid and naive that the remainder of my hair was falling out of my head. Even worse, politicians and journalists said specified things! Sorry, I don't remember who. How small do you request to know about politics to build specified theses? After all, Kaczyński will never quit power voluntarily. Ziobro will never leave the ministry of hacks by himself, due to the fact that he will be nobody. PiS will never sleep distant from TVP, due to the fact that then viewers will find out that the planet looks different than what they were shown. Coming back to Gowin: he is sitting in the Sejm, in the corner, on the right side, waiting for individual to take him. You talk as if the word "game over" is flashing above it. Meanwhile, Gowin cannot be denied a certain political skill: the power is changing, and he is inactive the minister of: justice, science, improvement ... After all, he has only been in the opposition for a year. What did you call it? "Political Skill"? Yes. I like another term: political villainy. Who is Leszek Miller for you? He is an outstanding prime minister who introduced Poland to the European Union. His historical merits cannot be denied, regardless of what happened next. And this is how it is with historical figures ... Lech Wałęsa was said to have brilliantly led Poland through the transformation, but then he would have served his own legend better if he had not spoken. Are you suggesting that Miller is the Walesa of the left? That's what you said. Virtually all opposition supporters I talk to anticipate PiS to be held accountable. At the same time, a crucial part of them do not believe that you will do it. What do you say? I have no doubts that will happen. Accounting for the current power is absolutely necessary. This will be a two-pronged process. Firstly, the State Tribunal will ban respective United Right politicians from holding public office. Secondly, an independent prosecutor's office will have quite a few work to do. Do you dream of bringing Zbigniew Ziobro before the Pegasus investigative committee? It's not about dreams. The disappearance of this subject from the agenda is 1 of the biggest political mistakes of fresh months. Russia's war against Ukraine should not blind us to this. Illegal surveillance of the opposition is an attack on a democratic state. Minister Semeniuk claims that those who have nothing on their conscience should not head being overheard and watched. Yes? Let him start a live study on his smartphone and do it continuously for half a year: at the doctor's, in the car, at the table, in the bathroom, in the bedroom ... Then we'll talk about how cool it is. Who do you want to be for the Left? A connector. Between past and the present, between the older and the younger generation. I have experienced many things, I have seen many things. I share my experience with younger people. I show the older ones how the Left is changing, why the energy and ideas of the young are so needed. labour rights, social rights, women's and minorities' rights, a secular state, combating the climate catastrophe - these are all part of the leftist agenda, although not all postulates have an equally long tradition. We started this conversation with things I believe in. I'll tell you what I wouldn't have believed until recently. Now I am 62 years old. As a fiftysomething, I was 1 of the younger SLD activists. If you had told me then that in 2022, the core of the fresh Left electorate would be women and people under 26, I would have laughed. Would you believe that he will lead to the promised merger of the SLD with the Spring at the cost of excluding subsequent members of the board, amid accusations of dictatorial tendencies and violating organization democracy? You're not talking to a crybaby. Leaders gotta make decisions, and those decisions are not always welcome. But you gotta take them, and that's the most crucial thing. I don't regret anything I've done in the last 2 years to fight for a united Left and a cohesive club. If I had to, I'd do it again. I talked to people wiser than me about the past of the left: Kwaśniewski, Siwiec, Zemke, Olejniczak… And they all warned me about the fact that in the mediate of the word dangerous centrifugal movements begin, which yet burst the left… Curse of 2 years? Yes. And then I made a decision: not on my watch. But it was not without losses. respective deputies and 1 senator left the club of the Left. SLD would not have entered the Sejm without Spring and Razem, Spring would not have entered the parliament without Razem and SLD, and Razem would not have had deputies without SLD and Raz. This has been shown by investigation and verified by elections. If individual doesn't remember it or doesn't want to remember it, then we have nothing to talk about. What alternate did I have? halt them at the cost of deceiving Spring and Together? And then what? Before the elections, come to Biedroń, Zandberg, Biejat, and say that I cheated them, but I won't anymore? I would just be a cheater. I refused and paid the price, but it was worth it. Now I am full of good feelings and hope for the Left. Where is Jarosław Kaczyński's place after the lost election? The court will decide.