Anna Dryjańska: We have a 3rd word of Law and Justice?
The Wizard: No. No way.
How can you be so sure?
I am convinced that this election will win the democratic opposition. In 1.5 years, the Left will co-ordinate.
You're an optimist.
Opposition organization leaders who are unsure about this should not be leaders.
So you're certain due to the fact that you're convinced.
Of course, I can be accused of being arrogant, but this forecast is based on political experience.
When a fewer years ago the Left fell out of the Sejm, she had the face of Magdalena Cucumber, long and 2 percent of support, I was certain that in 4 years we would return to the Sejm. And so it did.
And now I know that the democratic opposition will win this election. And we'll win them.
One list? 2 blocks? organization letters?
Six months before the election, you gotta do a large survey that shows what form of launch will be the most effective in cutting the PiS off power. And we will support this form. You request pragmatism here.
After the election, will the fresh Left submit a motion to denounce the concordat?
Yeah.
Who should be Prime Minister?
I am a stateman, so I believe that for the sake of the state, for its peace and stability, the head of government should be the leader of the strongest opposition party.
You mean Donald Tusk?
If the Civic Platform gets the best score and its president is Donald Tusk, then yes.
For you, it always ends badly erstwhile it is steered from the rear seat. Either you take work or you don't. The another anticipation is simply a strategy error. Just look at MP Jarosław Kaczyński.
"The Black Prime Minister". I can't believe you don't dream of it.
There is simply a very simple way for the Prime Minister to be the Left Man. I keep telling my colleagues: just be the strongest opposition party. erstwhile we get there, we'll show the Prime Minister. Oh, yeah? all force in the state should know its place.
"It's adequate to be" is vague. Do you have a plan?
I'm a rational politician. The plan is consistent and does not include firing acts or fireworks. The left should be very consistent in what she does.
There was a time erstwhile we made any mistakes, we fell in the ratings. But now we've begun rebuilding. In May, we jumped to 3rd place. We got up.
How?
First, we stopped arguing. We have closed the phase of disputes related to the merger of the SLD and Spring in the fresh Left. We saved the club in the Sejm, which besides belongs to the organization Together.
The wicked say: organization Separately. Don't you worry?
We have a contract signed with blood... of course, very warm. There's not, and there's not going to be any traffic in this case.
And second?
Secondly, we have submitted respective very cool bill projects: thoughtful, oversettled, creative. Like the National Housing Program. This is simply a very crucial task for me, besides for emotional reasons. My father was a builder his full life.
I believe that if the Left – after the Constitution was passed, after the introduction of Poland into the European Union – had contributed to solving the problem of housing, it would have been a large matter.
We besides developed a full taxation system, including VAT, PIT, CIT...
No organization can solve all the problems, we must focus on those that are most crucial to us. The right to an flat is 1 of the most crucial topics for us.
The 3rd thing that got us back in the polls: consistency. We stick to our banner values and projects, we do not succumb to momentary moods or media storms.
The issue of freedom of opinion, number groups, women's rights, social affairs, secular states – our attitude is unchanged, even if it is unpopular.
Women's rights are very popular now – for example, most people want a legal abortion.
However, our position on combating COVID-19 has not already been met with that much acceptance. We were the only ones who advocated mandatory protective vaccinations.
We did it due to the fact that it's liable due to the fact that liable politicians are trying to save lives during the epidemic.
We were aware that, even for any young people who support the Levica, compulsory vaccination would be hard to swallow. due to the fact that they don't like to have to.
We besides took a very strong stance on Russia's attack on Ukraine. As a European social democracy, we score the mistakes Scholz and SPD make towards Putin.
The 4th thing that got us back in the polls: we suspended all conflicts.
The opposition doesn't argue with each other, and that's good for everyone.
What would you say to that part of the supporters of the Civic Platform that accuses you of being the silent allies of the PiS?
I wouldn't argue with that at all due to the fact that it's so apparent that there's nothing to talk about. However, I know where this came from: a joint vote for ratification of PLN 780 billion for Poland.
"Common vote".
I couldn't imagine any another vote on this. The left, as a force that brought Poland into the European Union, behaved responsibly.
Notabene is now 780 billion. All focus on 1 3rd of this amount, the National Reconstruction Plan.
We don't even have it yet.
If it wasn't for the Left, there wouldn't be any "still" or "even" due to the fact that this money for Poland would just not be there.
Thanks to the Left, European funds will go to Poland at the latest after the opposition takes power.
You've been accused of voting like PiS. It's inactive on Twitter today.
It was the PiS who voted as much as we did! We voted with PSL and Holovnia. Left is simply a subject structure and makes its own decisions. present we would have voted the same due to the fact that the answer to the question of whether it is better for Poland to receive PLN 780 billion or not, is apparent to us.
In retrospect, however, I see that the gathering with Prime Minister Morawiecki was a marketing mistake.
The negotiations themselves on what should have been recorded in the KPO were right, but it could have been more thought out. It wasn't. And for that, we got our asses kicked.
But erstwhile it comes to the very form of the KPO proposed by the Left, I am very pleased with it. We have a condition: financial assistance for the construction of 73,000 apartments. Now, thanks to us, it's 1 of the milestones to go to 10 billion. No one's taking this from us.
The plans of the Left are, of course, much greater. We want these apartments to be 300 1000 as part of the nationwide program, but we already secured 73 1000 as part of the KPO. Our Vice president in Włocławek showed how to build specified apartments.
Another contribution from the Left to the KPO: 5 billion to region hospitals so strained by the epidemic. And also: thanks to Left 30 percent of the funds from KPO will go consecutive to local governments.
It was left that the alleged Steering Committee, which oversees the spending of money from the KPO, was besides able to guarantee that representatives of trade unions were seated. I can't imagine the Left, the Social Democracy, without unions.
In conclusion, we screwed up the form, but content is our large achievement. Then what am I ashamed of?
Living with a human right, legal abortion up to 12 weeks after consulting a doctor, climate protection - Tusk is starting to talk left. You got a problem?
None. Regardless of the intentions behind it, and I like to presume that good, Tusk is accustomed to his electorate that the Platform will co-ordinate with the Left. That's one.
Secondly, Tusk thus strengthens our demands. All those "terrible" things, of which 10-15 years ago was a large beak. Do you remember how they reacted to the slogan of social justice? “Living by law, not by commodity”? "The Holy Country"? Now no 1 serious laughs at it.
The Left is simply a guardian of all articles of the Constitution – including those concerning social rights.
Returning to Donald Tusk: Platforms will be hard to retreat after his words. And we will not forget: we have ready projects in all these matters, which we have already submitted respective times, and after the triumph of the democratic opposition we will re-commit.
If the Platform does not support our projects – which I do not want to believe – I promise you that in 2 years I will tell you in item what happened. But now I have an open heart for all democratic opposition and I believe that the PO refers to these matters in good faith.
Why should voters support the Left, not the Platform, erstwhile any of your demands are similar?
Because we have been making these demands since always and independently of the results of 1 temper survey. For me, the most crucial thing is that voters support the opposition. That's it.
You watch TVP?
Sometimes I watch.
Do you like going there?
I think that erstwhile you're a politician, you gotta go to public television, no substance what you think of it. Everyone understands that – there is no organization that does not appear there.
I inactive remember gathering with SLD activists in Wągrowiec. That was a fewer years ago. The atmosphere is good, I do what I can to stir up the company, I dance, I sing, I jump, I effort to compression tears, and at any point individual asks, "Mr. Chairman, why aren't you in the media?"
I'm a small amazed to say I was: yesterday, the day before yesterday... But there are more voices like that. At this point my old head starts working: delight let those who watch TVN24 rise their hand. Nothing. Then I say, Polsat News. 3 hands up. "What are you watching?" I ask. "Public Television".
That's why you gotta go to TVP and say yours. Convincing people. It's the only way we can get to the PiS voters and win this election.
While you were on the National Broadcasting and tv Council, was TVP equally subject to the interests of the ruling party?
Just as hard? Nope.
Just to be clear: TVP was never good, but it was never as bad as this.
I frequently think about it due to the fact that it is not only my horse, but besides my education: I am a postgraduate of journalism at the University of Warsaw.
Is it going to be okay with Polish television? I think so. seemingly the 30 years since the beginning of the transformation have passed, it is besides short for civilian society to solve the problem of public media. But it's only a substance of time.
That optimism again.
The TVP will be objective. It surely shouldn't be liquidated. It's 1 of the most powerful instruments that allows you to scope a large-scale society with education, culture, information...
Or lying, feeling...
That's right, but I'm talking about the ideal.
How was public media in your day?
The KRRiT, whose composition was shaped by the Sejm, legislature and President, represented 4 political forces: SLD, PSL, Civic Platform and PiS. Members of the KRRiT elected media supervisory boards in turn, and these elected boards.
At the time there was a greater balance, due to the fact that respective points of view were represented.
Was KRRiT depoliticized? No, she wasn't. But she was more plural than she is now.
You believe in winning next election and nonsubjective public media. Do you believe in Ukraine's victory?
Yeah, I just don't know erstwhile it's gonna happen.
One thing is known now: Russia lost this war.
Putin has led to a situation in which his country has lost its remaining credibility and social democratic governments in Sweden and Finland are rapidly deciding to join NATO.
The West was only a short time ago hoping that Russia could be tamed by economical ties. Nope. That's not how it works. Putin at the end of his reign showed the face of a degenerate, mass murderer.
I am an orthodox supporter of Ukraine's aid and sanctions against Russia. As the Left, we have a good card in this case. If we had to support the government on Ukrainian issues, we supported it, if the power did something wrong, then we called things by name.
When we had to, we were able to hit SPD and Scholz, although this is our European family.
A fewer weeks ago, Robert Biedron made a immense meeting. There were about a 1000 people, including Timmermans and Vice-Chief of the European Parliament.
We besides drove the leadership of the European Socialist organization to Przemyśl. We showed them the rooms where Ukrainian refugees are staying. I saw tears in the eyes of the SPD people. I know they didn't all dry until they returned to Berlin. Yesterday, we received the head of SPD in the Parliament.
Do you see Jarosław Gowin in the ruling coalition after the triumph of the democratic opposition?
That's the detail. First of all, Gowin has to convince individual to get a place on any list. I'm certain the Left won't take it.
I fishy he'll either go to the Citizens' Platform, in which he utilized to be a deputy prime minister, or to the PSL.
Prior to the presidential election, rumors circulated that the opposition would study him to the talker of the Sejm, and the Law and Justice government would lose the majority.
It was so stupid and naive that the hair was falling out of my head. Even worse, that's what politicians and journalists said! Out of pity, I won't mention who. How small do you request to know about politics to build specified a thesis?
After all, Kaczyński will never voluntarily quit power. Ziobro himself will never leave the Ministry of Hooks due to the fact that he will be nobody. PiS never sleeps off TVP, due to the fact that then viewers will see that the planet looks different than they were shown.
Returning to Govin, he sits in the Seyma, in a cone, on the right, and waits for who will take him.
You sound like you're flashing "game over" over it. Meanwhile, Gowin cannot be denied any political skill: power changes and he is inactive the minister of justice, science, development... He's only been in opposition for a year.
What did you call it? "Political skill"?
Yeah.
I like another term: political scum.
Who are you, Leszek Miller?
He is an outstanding Prime Minister who introduced Poland to the European Union. He cannot be denied historical merit, no substance what happens next.
And with historical figures, it's like... Lech Wałęsa was said to have brilliantly led Poland through the transformation, but then he would have served his own legend more if he had not spoken.
Are you suggesting Miller's a left winger?
That's what you said.
Practically all the opposition supporters I'm talking to are waiting for the PiS to be settled. At the same time, a large part of them do not believe you will. What do you say?
I have no uncertainty that this will happen.
The settlement of the current power is absolutely necessary.
It's going to run two-track. Firstly, the Court of State will prohibit respective politicians of the United Right from serving as public servants. Second, the independent prosecutor's office will have quite a few work to do.
Do you dream of putting Zbigniew Ziobra in front of the Pegasus committee of inquiry?
It's not a substance of dreams. The disappearance of this subject from the agenda is 1 of the biggest political mistakes of fresh months.
Russia's war against Ukraine shouldn't have left that out. Illegal surveillance of the opposition is an attack on a democratic state.
Minister Semenuk claims that those who have nothing on their conscience should not be disturbed by being overheard and peeked at.
Yeah? Then let him run a live account on his smartphone and make it continuously for six months: at the doctor, in the car, at the table, in the bathroom, in the bedroom... Then we'll talk about how cool it is.
What do you want to be to the Left?
Connection. Between past and the present, between the older and younger generation. I've been through quite a few things, seen things. I share my experience with younger people. I show older people how the Left changes, why energy and ideas of young people are so needed.
Workers' rights, social rights, women's rights and minorities, the secular state, the fight against climate disaster – all part of the left-wing agenda, although not all demands have an equally long tradition.
We started this conversation with things I believe. I'll tell you what else I wouldn't have believed.
Now I'm 62. As a 50-year-old, I was 1 of the younger SLD activists. If you had told me that in 2022, the fresh Left electorate would have had women and people under the age of 26, I would have laughed.
Would you believe that you would lead to the promised merger of the SLD and Spring at the price of excluding further board members, among charges of dictatorial impulses and breaking organization democracy?
You're not talking to a crybaby. Leaders must make decisions, and these decisions are not always welcome. But they request to be taken, and this is the most crucial thing.
I don't regret anything I've done in the last 2 years to fight for a unified Left and a coherent club. If I had to, I'd do it again.
I spoke to the wiser ones about the communicative of the left: with Kwasniewski, Siwce, Zemke, Olejniczak... And they all warned me about the fact that in the mediate of the word of office there are dangerous centrifugal movements that yet blow up the left...
A curse of 2 years?
Yeah. And then I made a decision, not on my watch.
But it wasn't without losses. respective MPs and 1 senator left the left club.
The SLD would not enter the Sejm without Spring and Together, the Spring would not get into parliament without the Together and the SLD, and the Together would not have MPs without the SLD and Spring. This was shown by investigation and verified the elections.
If anyone doesn't remember or want to remember, we have nothing to talk about.
What was my alternative? halt them at the price of cheating Spring and Together? And then what? Before the election, come to Biedron, Zandberg, Biejat, and say that I cheated them, but I won't? I'd just be a cheat.
I didn't agree to it and I paid the price, but it was worth it. Now I'm full of good feelings and hope for the Left.
Where is Jarosław Kaczyński's place after losing the election?
The court will decide.
