With this level of consciousness, they have no chance of anything but tragedy.
And then there's these quotes from the German... psB historian.
reprint
Ukrainian historian: Ukraine is like Holy Land today. The seemingly regional conflict has global implications
18.04.2025 11:09 Update: 19.04.2025 08:00
Ukrainian historian Jarosław Hrycak. photograph by PAP/Tomasz Gzell
PAP: Thanks to the efforts of the Kraków global Centre for Culture, the book “Ukraine. Getting out of the past” was published in Poland. Its first title sounds a bit different – "Overcoming the Past". Which past should Ukraine get out of, and which 1 should Ukraine get out of?
Jarosław Hrycak: For the first time, the postwar public debate in Germany began to talk about reconciliation with the past (Vergangenheitsbewältigung). It functioned in the context of discussions around the most shameful pages of German history, in peculiar the Holocaust and another crimes of national socialism. The aim of specified policies implemented by democracies was to aid the public yet reconcile with the legacy marked by dictatorship and cruelty so that it could decision forward. I give this word a somewhat different meaning due to the fact that I am not curious in the survey of historical memory. I like to survey "hard" history, facts, processes and trends.
PAP: So what do you mean erstwhile you talk about Ukraine's overcoming the past?
J.H.: The fact that in our past there are respective topics that primarily concern her. For me, these topics are poorness and violence, which are usually linked. Over the last 2 100 years, countries have emerged that have set themselves the long-term goal of overcoming the consequences of both. First they tried to limit force to a bearable level. After this, most countries have besides achieved economical success. That is why I was curious in how these countries managed to break out of the incorrect ellipse and what function the past played.
In another words, it is essential to find what has happened in our history, which continues to drag us down. That's what I was going to do erstwhile I wrote the book. Furthermore, the example of Ukraine is paradoxical adequate that despite its exceptional wealth of resources it remains a country of mediocre people.
PAP: Is the modernisation experience of Poland, which for a long time was put to the Ukrainians as a model, inactive valid? Does changing the global geopolitical and economical situation make it useless?
J.H.: I support the thesis that no nation is doomed to poorness and violence. At the same time, I am convinced that past and culture are something in the form of a gravitational force that prevents society from detaching from the ground, that is, from fast modernization. crucial texts that helped me realize this are articles by American economical historian Alexander Gerschenkron, who was born in Odessa in the early 20th century. It explored the historical background of economical backwardness and disputed with supporters of the explanation of economical improvement stages. He felt that underdeveloped countries should make their own strategy to overcome the delay.
In 1991 Ukraine could not repeat Poland's experience due to the fact that it had a worse starting position, which is not only measured by economical indicators. At the same time, I believe that Poland's experience is inactive valid. If Ukraine succeeded in a akin transformation, the problems we would have would be more akin to those faced by Poland. Now we have another problems. I don't think all countries are ready for this fast reset. Ukraine ceased to be a provincial, isolated territory before the current war, but failed to implement many reforms, especially judicial reforms. It allowed her to approach the reset, but not start it.
PAP: Your book places Ukraine's past in a global context. Timothy Snyder, whom you are working with as part of the "Ukrainian History: A Global Initiative" project, says that the current dramatic situation around Ukraine is unique due to the fact that for the first time the planet has seen that this country may be in the epicentre of change in the world. Do you agree with that thesis?
J.H.: I would avoid the word "exceptional". The events presently taking place in Ukraine will be of large importance to both the destiny of Europe and the world. In the late 1980s they depended on events in Poland. The difference, however, is that Poland was able to make its civilizational leap in the times of peace, catching the wind of democracy, while Ukraine must do so in much more hard conditions.
The Ukrainian issue came out during planet War I. Like the Polish issue in the 19th century, it was crucial for the arrangement of forces on the Old Continent and the structures of the powers themselves, and besides played an crucial function during both planet wars. At the time, no 1 paid attention to this due to Ukraine's deficiency of subjectivity. This time Ukraine has this subjectivity, and its citizens are not in global isolation or on the side of forces that are 1 step distant from losing.
As far as the visibility of Ukraine is concerned, the situation reminds me of children's hide-and-seek. It is seen in times of crisis erstwhile there are tectonic changes in the world, but in the meantime it is almost invisible.
I will remind you that Milan Kunder's 40 years ago published an article on the stolen West, in which he emphasized that the multimillion-dollar Ukrainian nation was disappearing before our eyes. He did not compose it out of anger, but most likely with sadness to emphasize that a akin destiny may happen to Czechs and Poles. little than 8 years later, the USSR fell apart and the Ukrainians played a crucial function in its fall.
PAP: Do you think that the war in Ukraine gives emergence to reflection on the postheroic and post-national worldview, which expresses the maxim of Bertolt Brecht: “A country that needs heroes is unhappy,” because, as you can see, civilian and cultural nationalisms can mobilise not only to conquest but besides to resistance?
J.H.: planet War II has given many previously crucial concepts a negative effect. 1 specified word is “home” – Vaterland. This concept was abused in various ways by Hitler and another dictators, so it was considered toxic. In the Western world, this word is inactive frequently utilized with negative connotations. However, in east Europe, the attitude towards this concept is better, given that the peoples of Central and east Europe are inactive surviving with a view to danger.
Similarly, in the case of threatened Ukraine, where the choice of heroic past is inevitable. I like to illustrate this difference between East and West through my dialog with a Swedish polytologist. erstwhile I asked him who the national hero of his country was, after a short break he replied, “Maybe ABBA”. No historical community can be without myths. They are a binder of society, something akin to spiritual beliefs in the past. As long as Ukraine is only on its way to success, as long as it fights threats, the situation will not change fundamentally. On the another hand, that is the function of Ukraine. Through their nationalism, Ukrainians reconstruct to the planet the importance of values worth fighting for, even so that there is nothing to live for.
PAP: However, in German there is besides the word "Heimat" in addition to the word "Vateland", which means a alternatively emotional relation with the place from which you are from. It is something akin to distinguishing between a country written in Ukrainian with a capital and lower case.
J.H.: Yes, it is. I like this beautiful liberal phrase myself, but the problem is that tiny homelands can't defend themselves. These communities are powerless against global challenges specified as global warming, the financial crisis or war.
PAP: Do you find any parallels between the events of the long 20th century and possible forks of roads facing the planet and the Ukrainian state?
J.H.: Historians avoid describing processes that have not yet been completed. However, 2 risky analogies come to mind. Ukraine is present like the Holy Land, where a fierce conflict is taking place in a geographically limited territory. Despite its seemingly regional significance, global implications are important.
As with the unprecedented historical experimentation with the establishment of the State of Israel, the destiny of another historical experimentation will depend on the effects of Ukraine's defence. We are talking about the world’s largest non-war space — the European Union. For centuries Europe has been 1 of the most conflicted continents. Despite all the flaws and scepticism towards Brussels, it was through this task that created specified a large area of cooperation, increased standards of living, successful reforms, solidarity and common assistance. Ukraine must leave the dangerous region Russia has been creating for it for centuries. But Europeans should not be passive either. Whether they will be able to defend their civilisational choice will find whether they will be a model for the planet or destruct the modus operandi of unconflicted coexistence.
The second analogy is based on my feeling that we are in 1938. The only difference is that we can either approach the disaster - in specified a case, the war in Ukraine will compose as a prelude to planet War III - or decision distant from it.
Jarosław Hrycak (born 1960) is simply a historian, prof. of Ukrainian Catholic University in Lviv, manager of the Institute of Historical investigation at I. Franki University in Lviv. He taught at the Central European University in Budapest (1996-2009), Harvard University (2000, 2001) and Columbia University (1994, 2004). Author of many publications devoted to the past and contemporary identity of Central and east Europe.
The book Jarosław Hrycak “Ukraine. To get out of the past” in the translation of Katarzyna Kotyńska and Joanna Majewski-Grabowska released the MCK in Krakow.
Ihor Usatenko (PAP) spoke
pap nosci nosci nosci s s s
reprint
Ukrainian historian: Ukraine is like Holy Land today. The seemingly regional conflict has global implications
18.04.2025 11:09 Update: 19.04.2025 08:00
Ukrainian historian Jarosław Hrycak. photograph by PAP/Tomasz Gzell
PAP: Thanks to the efforts of the Kraków global Centre for Culture, the book “Ukraine. Getting out of the past” was published in Poland. Its first title sounds a bit different – "Overcoming the Past". Which past should Ukraine get out of, and which 1 should Ukraine get out of?
Jarosław Hrycak: For the first time, the postwar public debate in Germany began to talk about reconciliation with the past (Vergangenheitsbewältigung). It functioned in the context of discussions around the most shameful pages of German history, in peculiar the Holocaust and another crimes of national socialism. The aim of specified policies implemented by democracies was to aid the public yet reconcile with the legacy marked by dictatorship and cruelty so that it could decision forward. I give this word a somewhat different meaning due to the fact that I am not curious in the survey of historical memory. I like to survey "hard" history, facts, processes and trends.
PAP: So what do you mean erstwhile you talk about Ukraine's overcoming the past?
J.H.: The fact that in our past there are respective topics that primarily concern her. For me, these topics are poorness and violence, which are usually linked. Over the last 2 100 years, countries have emerged that have set themselves the long-term goal of overcoming the consequences of both. First they tried to limit force to a bearable level. After this, most countries have besides achieved economical success. That is why I was curious in how these countries managed to break out of the incorrect ellipse and what function the past played.
In another words, it is essential to find what has happened in our history, which continues to drag us down. That's what I was going to do erstwhile I wrote the book. Furthermore, the example of Ukraine is paradoxical adequate that despite its exceptional wealth of resources it remains a country of mediocre people.
PAP: Is the modernisation experience of Poland, which for a long time was put to the Ukrainians as a model, inactive valid? Does changing the global geopolitical and economical situation make it useless?
J.H.: I support the thesis that no nation is doomed to poorness and violence. At the same time, I am convinced that past and culture are something in the form of a gravitational force that prevents society from detaching from the ground, that is, from fast modernization. crucial texts that helped me realize this are articles by American economical historian Alexander Gerschenkron, who was born in Odessa in the early 20th century. It explored the historical background of economical backwardness and disputed with supporters of the explanation of economical improvement stages. He felt that underdeveloped countries should make their own strategy to overcome the delay.
In 1991 Ukraine could not repeat Poland's experience due to the fact that it had a worse starting position, which is not only measured by economical indicators. At the same time, I believe that Poland's experience is inactive valid. If Ukraine succeeded in a akin transformation, the problems we would have would be more akin to those faced by Poland. Now we have another problems. I don't think all countries are ready for this fast reset. Ukraine ceased to be a provincial, isolated territory before the current war, but failed to implement many reforms, especially judicial reforms. It allowed her to approach the reset, but not start it.
PAP: Your book places Ukraine's past in a global context. Timothy Snyder, whom you are working with as part of the "Ukrainian History: A Global Initiative" project, says that the current dramatic situation around Ukraine is unique due to the fact that for the first time the planet has seen that this country may be in the epicentre of change in the world. Do you agree with that thesis?
J.H.: I would avoid the word "exceptional". The events presently taking place in Ukraine will be of large importance to both the destiny of Europe and the world. In the late 1980s they depended on events in Poland. The difference, however, is that Poland was able to make its civilizational leap in the times of peace, catching the wind of democracy, while Ukraine must do so in much more hard conditions.
The Ukrainian issue came out during planet War I. Like the Polish issue in the 19th century, it was crucial for the arrangement of forces on the Old Continent and the structures of the powers themselves, and besides played an crucial function during both planet wars. At the time, no 1 paid attention to this due to Ukraine's deficiency of subjectivity. This time Ukraine has this subjectivity, and its citizens are not in global isolation or on the side of forces that are 1 step distant from losing.
As far as the visibility of Ukraine is concerned, the situation reminds me of children's hide-and-seek. It is seen in times of crisis erstwhile there are tectonic changes in the world, but in the meantime it is almost invisible.
I will remind you that Milan Kunder's 40 years ago published an article on the stolen West, in which he emphasized that the multimillion-dollar Ukrainian nation was disappearing before our eyes. He did not compose it out of anger, but most likely with sadness to emphasize that a akin destiny may happen to Czechs and Poles. little than 8 years later, the USSR fell apart and the Ukrainians played a crucial function in its fall.
PAP: Do you think that the war in Ukraine gives emergence to reflection on the postheroic and post-national worldview, which expresses the maxim of Bertolt Brecht: “A country that needs heroes is unhappy,” because, as you can see, civilian and cultural nationalisms can mobilise not only to conquest but besides to resistance?
J.H.: planet War II has given many previously crucial concepts a negative effect. 1 specified word is “home” – Vaterland. This concept was abused in various ways by Hitler and another dictators, so it was considered toxic. In the Western world, this word is inactive frequently utilized with negative connotations. However, in east Europe, the attitude towards this concept is better, given that the peoples of Central and east Europe are inactive surviving with a view to danger.
Similarly, in the case of threatened Ukraine, where the choice of heroic past is inevitable. I like to illustrate this difference between East and West through my dialog with a Swedish polytologist. erstwhile I asked him who the national hero of his country was, after a short break he replied, “Maybe ABBA”. No historical community can be without myths. They are a binder of society, something akin to spiritual beliefs in the past. As long as Ukraine is only on its way to success, as long as it fights threats, the situation will not change fundamentally. On the another hand, that is the function of Ukraine. Through their nationalism, Ukrainians reconstruct to the planet the importance of values worth fighting for, even so that there is nothing to live for.
PAP: However, in German there is besides the word "Heimat" in addition to the word "Vateland", which means a alternatively emotional relation with the place from which you are from. It is something akin to distinguishing between a country written in Ukrainian with a capital and lower case.
J.H.: Yes, it is. I like this beautiful liberal phrase myself, but the problem is that tiny homelands can't defend themselves. These communities are powerless against global challenges specified as global warming, the financial crisis or war.
PAP: Do you find any parallels between the events of the long 20th century and possible forks of roads facing the planet and the Ukrainian state?
J.H.: Historians avoid describing processes that have not yet been completed. However, 2 risky analogies come to mind. Ukraine is present like the Holy Land, where a fierce conflict is taking place in a geographically limited territory. Despite its seemingly regional significance, global implications are important.
As with the unprecedented historical experimentation with the establishment of the State of Israel, the destiny of another historical experimentation will depend on the effects of Ukraine's defence. We are talking about the world’s largest non-war space — the European Union. For centuries Europe has been 1 of the most conflicted continents. Despite all the flaws and scepticism towards Brussels, it was through this task that created specified a large area of cooperation, increased standards of living, successful reforms, solidarity and common assistance. Ukraine must leave the dangerous region Russia has been creating for it for centuries. But Europeans should not be passive either. Whether they will be able to defend their civilisational choice will find whether they will be a model for the planet or destruct the modus operandi of unconflicted coexistence.
The second analogy is based on my feeling that we are in 1938. The only difference is that we can either approach the disaster - in specified a case, the war in Ukraine will compose as a prelude to planet War III - or decision distant from it.
Jarosław Hrycak (born 1960) is simply a historian, prof. of Ukrainian Catholic University in Lviv, manager of the Institute of Historical investigation at I. Franki University in Lviv. He taught at the Central European University in Budapest (1996-2009), Harvard University (2000, 2001) and Columbia University (1994, 2004). Author of many publications devoted to the past and contemporary identity of Central and east Europe.
The book Jarosław Hrycak “Ukraine. To get out of the past” in the translation of Katarzyna Kotyńska and Joanna Majewski-Grabowska released the MCK in Krakow.
Ihor Usatenko (PAP) spoke
pap nosci nosci nosci s s s
