The Russians don't want war

Conversation with Dmitri Rogozin, Senator, erstwhile Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Government

I'd like to start with the title of your last book On the Western Front, there are changes. Where do you place this Western front today, how can you draw it from the point of view of Russia and from your individual point of view?

Russia is simply a immense country. It is located between the giant, ever-growing East, Asia, and Western Europe. You know that. But this is not only a geographical fact, but besides a political fact that influences Russia's history, the formation of the national character of our full nation and of the nations that are part of it. Of course, Ural, which is the geographical boundary of Asia and Europe, besides has its symbolic dimension. That's why the Western Front... The word “front” is more crucial than the word “Western”. Unfortunately, we have this front now. Nobody wants a war. The Russians never wanted her. We even have songs about this subject like this Do the Russians want war?. We suffered immense losses. You must know that on May 9, we celebrate a feast of unifying left-wing, right-wing, all of us. On 9 May, not so much is the military parade in Red Square as the Immortal Regiment – an action that has been taking place for respective years in Russian cities and beyond Russia. To be honest, I have not been a large admirer of going to all manifestations and meetings since russian times. But now my wife, my children and my grandchildren regularly go on this march with portraits of our relatives, relatives. I prepared a image of my father, who escaped as a young boy on the front and participated in the liberation of Smolensk in 1943. Both my wife's grandparents fought. 1 of them, an artilleryman, was killed in late 1942. The second of them survived to the end of the war, though he was wounded. I think Poles realize this too, due to the fact that Poland lost all 4th citizen, if I am correct, in this war. And it turned out to be between 2 fires. And although Poland has a difficult, bad attitude towards Russia, Russia is actually specified a large Poland. You could say that. That is why the Western front is as real as possible to us. Why did I change my title to Remarque? In the Russian transcription, I changed the letter in the word “without” to “bies”. "Bies", as in Dostoevsky, many who noticed the spiritual component of this worldview conflict. For us, this full war was Satan's. Those who started this bloodshed, the conflict, the fire between relatives towards each other, between Slavs – it is for us to be poor.

Your ancestors fought on the Western Front a long time ago, as we learned from your books. I mean the Lord of Polish ancestors who took part in the conflict of Grunwald in 1410.

– You know, it's a very interesting and unusual story. I utilized to go through household records. They survived someway due to the fact that my household had lived in Moscow since the mid-19th century. They came from present Belarus, or then Poland – from Grodna. They later moved to Mohylev and later to Smolensk as courtiers. After the next partition of Poland made by 3 imperialist powers, this part of Poland found itself within the borders of the Russian Empire. Thus they became Russian courtiers. And then they became Moscowians, and they lived in Moscow. 1 of the German bombs hit the home in 1941, where my grandpa and his grandma lived and my father, who was inactive a child. The home burned down. Before that, however, they managed to transport the archives – first on a holiday. They were then evacuated and then returned to Moscow. In short, I've been cleaning up these archives. It was very interesting for me to learn about this history. There are many papers of King Sigismund the Old dedicated to my ancestors. I've been going through all these historical materials. It was highly interesting for me to learn about how this large conflict of Grunwald, which was of large importance for the formation of the large Polish statehood, the Republic. There are 2 leaders – Witold and Jagiełło. As you know, they were family, but 1 of them was connected to Lithuania. Lithuania was then, interestingly enough, Orthodox and created a Lithuanian-Russian state, specified a Russia – very interesting. And the Polish state, which grew importantly after the Grunwald victory. But for the Lithuanians, Grunwald... Do you know the name Grunwald in Lithuanian?

Honestly, I don't know what it'll be like in Lithuanian...

- Žalgiris. I heard that name due to the fact that there was an excellent basketball club Žalgiris. And I couldn't figure out what that meant. And it turns out that for the Lithuanians, it means a lot to their stories. erstwhile I described this communicative in my book, entirely based on archival documents, abruptly the Lithuanian ambassador came to me. And then – although it sounds unusual present – in Brussels I was very friendly with the Lithuanian Ambassador and the Polish Ambassador. I don't know why, regardless of the current relationship. And this Lithuanian ambassador, a man rather famous, who later, on his return from Brussels, was Minister of Defence of Lithuania, says to me: listen, let us translate your book into Lithuanian. I tell him, "Why not, but I don't have the money for it." And he says they've already found a Lithuanian publisher who wants to take care of the translation. All right. And they translated it into Lithuanian. I couldn't realize why. Then they called me from the Lithuanian embassy and said they were waiting for me in Vilnius. I thought, "What kind of a Russian nationalist do they call me?" And they're ready to pay the ticket costs. I bought the tickets myself and flew to Vilnius. From the airport, they drove me to the home of Literature, and there was a area full of Lithuanian historians, another celebrated people. A very well-known actor from russian times inactive takes the book into his hand and starts reading the chapter about the Grunwald conflict aloud. Then everyone gets up and starts clapping. I think, to whom and why do they applaud? And it turns out they clapped due to the fact that my ancestor was Witold's foster son. It's not Jags, it's Witold. And I realized that for the Lithuanians it is very crucial to dispute with Poles about who killed the large master of the Teutonic Order. It was very comic to me. I surely didn't want to bring any dissonance into this relationship. It has been a period and I meet with the Minister of abroad Affairs of Poland, known in Poland and Russia Sikorski. And Sikorski had any conversations with me in Warsaw, after which he shows me a immense image in the Polish abroad Ministry presenting the conflict of Grunwald. And he says to me: you see, Mr. Rogozin, or possibly Mr.Mitkiewicz-Żółłtek, in this painting you can see that it was the Polish knight who pierced von Jungingen's breast, a German aristocrat. It was comic to me again. And I honestly assure you that I did not want to contribute to Polish-Lithuanian disputes with my book. I just described my family's story. Families that were both Polish and Lithuanian, and Prussian, and Russian. Its first roots reached Prusai, erased from the map after the raids of the German knighthood, inactive sword cavalry. And so our household crest, which we have at home and which we respect very much in the family, is called Prussia. It is distinguished that a short sword hangs over the knight's head as a symbol of the household losing its land as a consequence of the raid of sword cavalry. As a result, they fled to Lithuania, which later became Poland and they became Poles. Until they yet became Russians, but never forgot Polish roots. Therefore, for me, for my family, for those of my relatives who respect history, it was always considered to be any kind of aberration what happens in Russian-Polish relations. Among my relatives were those who participated in the Polish uprisings of the 19th century and were sent to Siberia. There were besides those who, on the contrary, actively promoted the Russian state idea. Among them were very interesting people, for example the military attaché of the National Army in London during planet War II was Colonel Mitkiewicz-Żółłtek, our distant relative. Not the People's Army, but the National Army, and served in London. Later, he emigrated to the United States and hence any of the household lives in America. It's besides a large household that remembers its roots. I tell my grandchildren that Poland, about which we compose different things, is not always a good country, whose blood is in your veins. And that they should do everything in the future to guarantee that our relations – hopefully shortly – are normalized. For us, this case is very personal. I truly want that everything was okay with Poland. I'm being honest.

Rogozin, like the head of Roskosmos and Vladimir Putin

It is inactive hard to summarize what happened and what will happen in Ukraine in the close future. But where do you think this anti-Russia task that president Putin was talking about came from? How did it happen that transforming public opinion towards nationalism, which had previously been of any importance, but only in the western regions, the circuits of Ukraine, proved so easy there? And now it has become an almost state ideology, widely recognized. How do you think that could have happened?

– It's most likely the hardest question I can't give you a complete and final answer to. I'm reasoning about it myself. We think about this full household erstwhile we meet in a wider ellipse on any day off. My wife's sister married a Ukrainian. His name is Giennadi Gawrylenko and he's a very good man. In 1990, he wandered around Europe in search of work. They later met, came to Russia and accepted Russian citizenship. But his full family, brothers – older and middle, mother, live there, in Ukraine. And he's going through a lot due to the fact that he can't even call. No contact with the brothers. They don't realize him, he doesn't realize them. And all of this, although these people, his brothers, inactive after 2014, after the coup in Kiev, came to Moscow, looked for opportunities to decision here, work, curse the banders, etc. And now they're all afraid to talk to him on the phone, or don't want to – I don't know. That's why to answer how it happened... I think it would be easier for you to answer that question than for me. It's all a tremendous power of word, television, radio, propaganda. I mean, someday... I know this situation a small bit, due to the fact that my father worked in Kiev, who was military, and there are large airline companies called Oleg Antonov. My father had connections with these betting facilities, worked there and lived in Kiev for rather a long time. I went to first class there. We lived in Kreszczatik and 1 of our closest relatives was the leading tenor in the Kiev state opera. His name was Petro Billinik and we lived in his apartment. At the time, I did not pay attention to it, but the full environment was Russian-speaking. Everyone spoke Russian and spoke no another language. any signs in Kiev sounded exotic to us, like a dumpling. But it was a manifestation of fashion and specified a delicate Ukraine promoted by the then ruling communist party. But it was the Russian world, no doubt. It was recognized that Kiev was a Russian city, as evidenced by its origin, our Russian large princes, etc. Later, erstwhile I was studying at Moscow University, in the 3rd year they began moving students to us from the capitals of another union republics. Among them were boys from Kiev, from Kiev State University named Shevchenko. Talking to them, somewhere in 1982, 1983, I realized 1 interesting thing. I learned that only Ukrainian-speaking journalists work on Ukrainian television, telepathy, not after Kiev University, but after Lviv University. That is due to the fact that Kiev was incapable to educate journalists who spoke well, journalists to work in Kiev were imported from Lviv, Tarnopol, etc., i.e. from western circuits. And they went there with another ideology. In fact, the integration process of those for whom Bandera, Szuchewycz, Ukrainian Povs dancing Army, the SS division “Galiczyna” was something close and native, in Ukrainian, even russian yet information space took place in 1970s and 1980s, long before the russian Union crisis. Ukrainian nationalists, who worked in russian authorities, are straight liable for this. Secondly, let us remember that Khrushchev and Brezhnev came from Ukraine. Each of them contributed to the strengthening of Ukrainian samostiness. Khrushchev released everyone from prisons, including SS-mans who served in SS Galicina. They served only a fewer years, alternatively of doing the full punishment. In addition, he put behind bars people who fought against flagism, including Paul Sufupalov himself, a well-known "illegal" – an interviewer, from Ukraine, from Melitopol, a man in his legendary times. And he served his sentence, if I remember correctly, 20 years. Question: Why was the Crimea then transferred to the Ukrainian Socialist russian Republic? I have the impression that Khrushchev was thus looking for strong support in the political conflict he had in Moscow. He sought what support and understood that relying on the russian swamp in Ukraine would be insufficient and so had to trust on something tougher, more relentless. specified unbreakable was Ukrainian nationalism.

So it was Khrushchev who caused this wave in the 1950s and 1960s. Brezhnev besides relied on this. possibly not on Ukrainian nationalism, but on specified a self-confident, very independent Ukraine in the composition of the russian Union. That's why they sent the best personnel there, they made the best companies. I can mention a fewer things: the shipyard in Nikolayev that built aircraft carriers – it was Ukraine; Nikolayevsky plant Zoria-Maszprojekt, i.e. a gas turbine factory; Motor-Sicz – a unique aircraft engine manufacturing plant; Antonowa plant in Kiev, which I have already mentioned; thechark tractor factory, etc. It would take a long time to trade. Dnipropetrovsk You already have this maker of the best space rockets, including the “Voivode” rockets – “Satan”, which are inactive the backbone of Russia's strategical atomic forces. It was all in russian Ukraine. Army. The basis of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were the 3 best, most powerful military districts: Zakarpacki, Odesski and Kiev. They were russian army military districts focused on the most dangerous, western direction. That's why you had to be an idiot, a madman, to give Ukraine independence, to leave them everything, including an army. It was a crime. If they wanted to, they could make their army from scratch. Why give them the best part of the army? It had to be understood that there could not be 2 Russian states. I noticed a very crucial thing. Many Ukrainian politicians from the surroundings of Zelensk convince that we are not Russians, but “orcas”, Buriats, any Asians, and the real Russians are them.

So, actually, as in this old anecdote: erstwhile they ask a Russian “what will you do erstwhile you land on a deserted island?” and he replies that he will build 2 churches. And erstwhile they ask him why two, he answers, I will go to one, and in the another my leg will not stand. You understand. There cannot be 2 Russian states, due to the fact that they will be enemies. Just as there cannot be 2 Polish states. If 1 more Polish state were created, it would be Warsaw's biggest enemy. It's obvious. Why did I tell you about this situation in Lithuania? Lithuania is not Poland, but in past there have been moments for which the Lithuanians inactive argue with Poles. Who was someone: Polish or Lithuanian? It was weird for me. I thought this historical flashback was over a long time ago. And it turns out that this is crucial not only to average people, but even to politicians. So Poland is not on the head of the second Polish state, and in Russia specified a country appeared in the form of Ukraine. The paradox is that from the trenches we hear Russian today. I just spoke to 1 of our army commanders. I came to him after the night fights, having tea. He was sitting there so dreary and I asked him what happened. And he says, "You know, present we shot up the SHU column and I heard people screaming through radio equipment. They were Russian curses and Russian screams. We are fighting our mirror image," he said. We fight each other. There are people on that side just like us. But they're like zombies. They're as Russian as we are, but there are others, and there's no way to realize them. I spoke to the prisoners myself. It is not known why they were convinced that we were about to cut them with saws, cut their heads off, etc. erstwhile we gave them food and tobacco, they sat in silence for a long time. After a week in captivity, they began to recover. And I asked them what it was about. And they said, "If they surrender and go into captivity, we will torment them, cripple them, torture them due to the fact that we are barbarians."

What have they done to Ukraine, to the Ukrainian people, to the Russians in Ukraine for 30 years? How did propaganda make zombie people who hatred and fear Russia, not believe their brothers live in Russia? There are even those who came from Russia. We have people who came from Ukraine. erstwhile the Black Sea Fleet was divided in 1991 – it was anecdotal to us, though not comic at all – people with names specified as Ivanov, Petrov, Sidorov were at the head of the Ukrainian Navy. And in our part of the Black Sea Fleet, there were only Ukrainian names in command. So the Ukrainians became Russians and the Russians became Ukrainians. How is that possible? The power of propaganda is simply a immense problem. And now there's blood, pain from the fallen comrades who died in that civilian war. This civilian war first broke out within the borders of Ukraine, on Donbasa and in the Luhansk region. Ukrainians fought against Ukrainians there. Later on, we intervened due to the fact that they were our fellow countrymen and we could not bear it anymore, we had to defend our own against the Kiev regime. And we have a large civilian war. In fact, it is not a war between different countries, it is the same nation. During this time, so much blood and injuries have accumulated that we have ceased to consider ourselves brothers. That's bad.

But how could this even happen? Russia had a soft force, a gigantic potential, not only in Russian-speaking space, but besides in the wider world. And abruptly Victoria Nuland, the deputy U.S. Secretary of State, boasts that by 2014, they had spent $5 billion and that was adequate to take practically full political control over, among others, the identity of modern Ukraine. Why could Russia not usage its soft force, which it had, and which it had at the time?

– This means that this soft force has been utilized unspeakably. She was not understood, she lacked experience, she was underestimated. any thought everything was fine and that they would welcome us with flowers. You know... That's why I find it hard to answer that question. I saw what was going on. He's very sorry erstwhile you see it, trying to get to the bottom of it, getting to the floor, explaining that things are different; that you've entrusted something to the incorrect people. And alternatively of being dealt with by politically prepared people who understood something about the past of this issue, they referred primarily to the business approach. And what did that do? How are our oligarchs better than Ukrainians? Same trigger, 1 side and the another side. And they said here that everything's fine, everything's fine, that they support us there. And then all of this happened. It's a immense mistake that's been made, and I don't even want to comment on it due to the fact that I'm afraid I'd start cursing.

I see. How much do you think Russia can number on loyalty in these hard times from an oligarchical class formed in 1990?

– Of course he can't. How can they be counted on? First of all, they can't explain where they got their first million dollars. There's a large gag about it that all capitalist can tell how he made his billions, but he'll never tell you how he made his first million. due to the fact that that first million was always from stealing. They stole it. And like Cain's mark, they'll have her on their foreheads all their lives. The first generation of capitalists in all country where bourgeois counter-revolution occurred, and in 1991, in our country there was actually a bourgeois counter-revolution. It was the dissolution of a large country, the overthrow of all ideals, the insult of historical memory, and the coming to power of greedy, greedy bastards. That's mostly what it looked like. And, interestingly enough, all these bastards came from the organization nomenclature. Therefore, there were no external signs of revolution, everything was rather peaceful and peaceful. People didn't even get out of their seats, they stayed in the same offices. Only earlier there were signs of the “Communist organization of the russian Union”, the slogan “Let Lenin live!” and now they were replaced with “Let capitalism live!”. They just changed the signs. It was around them that a group of these combinationists, villains, brawlers and various scandalists formed. The emergence of oligarchy was a way of legalising the capital of power. Power can't just bargain itself, so it organizes these businessmen around it. He gives them all the favorable contracts, transfers the property. In return, they quit any of that money to power. But the oligarchs didn't come out of nowhere. They are the fetus of corrupt power.

Matthew Piskorski spoke

Dmitri Rogozin – Russian Senator (member of the Federation Council). From 1997 to 2007, he was a associate of State Duma (from 2000 to 2003 – president of the Committee on abroad Affairs, from 2003 to 2004 – Vice-President of Duma). From 2008 to 2011, a permanent typical of Russia to NATO. From 2011 to 2018, Deputy Prime Minister of Government of the Russian Federation, then (2018-2022) – manager General of Space Agency Roskosmos.

Think Poland, No. 45-46 (5-12.11.2023)