Don't you always envy your erstwhile partymates? specified Adam Bielan or Janusz Cieszynski.
Prof. Marek Migalski: No. It seems to me that today's positions, both in the life sense and in the ideal-intellectual sense, I owe not that I am morally superior to them, but to a coincidence.
If you hadn't pointed out Jarosław Kaczyński's mistakes in 2010, would it have been different?
I'm talking about 2014, which is my separation from politics. After leaving the PiS club in 2010, I co-founded 2 centre-right parties: PJN and later Poland Together Jarosław Gowin. Both were vice presidents. Only after losing the second in the 2014 European elections, I returned to academic life.
If I had stayed in Poland with Adam Bielan, I would most likely step by step as part of small, regular and acceptable compromises, I would later be able to get the full organization on the lists of the United Right. possibly I would be Minister of Education like Jarosław Gowin or a Euro MP like Adam Bielan. possibly I'd do the same horrible things they did later. In their alliance with Jarosław Kaczyński, they became a parody and a denial of ideals that drove them into politics years ago.
So I'm not smarter than them, I wasn't more righteous than them, and yet I succeeded through a coincidence and a fewer decisions to become who I am today. I've had an thought evolution, and in the last 10 years, I've written 3 novels and respective technological books.
Returning to Bielan and Cieszynski. Lately, they've had a beautiful strong "broil" and their hair hasn't dropped. They divide and rule. The affairs of the United Right do not weaken. Why is the PiS not immune?
I'm not going to mention to these 2 names. The PiS teflonity mechanics is double. The parties – with peculiar appreciation of the power holders – accepted that the gang's mentality was better than accountability.
In a gang, if you're loyal, we defend you. We'll let you get out of here erstwhile you're a Crown witness or you go to another gang.
We don't decision our own people, we turn a blind eye to vices and scandals?
Yes, at any point this modus operandi was selected. This was not the case for the alleged first regulation of the Law and Justice. Then Jarosław Kaczyński was delicate to the opinion of the media and reacted to what was incorrect with his political background. For the alleged second regulation of the Law and Justice, or since 2015, this has changed.
Jarosław Kaczyński changed, circumstances, or us – Poles?
That's the second part of the answer. Returning for a minute to Jarosław Kaczyński – from the point of view of his own interests – he does well. His erstwhile tactics stripped him of his power, and he was given that power. This change would not have taken place without the second aspect – hardening certain social processes
All this would be impossible if it met with social opposition and outrage of the PiS electorate. This is where we come up with the most crucial issue. If we are wondering why there are no specified standards in Poland as in Norway or Sweden, then I reply: due to the fact that Poles live in Poland, not Norwegians or Swedes.
In short, Kaczyński can do this due to the fact that his voters do not mind.
Do you think the PiS voters of many scandals don't know due to the fact that their main origin of information is TVP or do they just tolerate them?
Some PiS voters are in fact computer impaired (although they are not the only ones) – they read only 1 web portal, watch 1 tv or are not curious at all. And any voters are not outraged at the PiS politicians due to the fact that they just don't know about them. But in my opinion, it's a minority.
The power of TVP is overestimated, the power of failure to inform PiS voters is overestimated. The second – most of the PiS voters – knows that the politicians of this organization steal, get rich, feed themselves and do not mind. They consider that even if so, they have another – more crucial – reasons to vote for this party.
Here motivations can be different: due to the fact that it's fair, they've done so before, due to the fact that politics is dirty due to the fact that they share. The PiS electors know it, but they inactive choose this party.
There is simply a 3rd – the smallest in my opinion – group. They're voting for the PiS due to the fact that it does. Thieves, corruption, appropriation – is just what politics is. There's nothing incorrect with that, and that's something to brag about. And surely not to be ashamed of it. Therefore, a large proportion of the PiS voters do not turn distant from this organization after the subsequent scandals have been revealed.
Octopus, Nowak's gold watch has overthrown the government. And now we've got a large deal for this. After the last – visa – the end of the PiS was announced, and they grew in any polls. Why are we more outraged by an costly dinner of politicians than respirators from an arms dealer for respective 100 million PLN?
Politics for most people no longer had anything to do with reality, and began to replace the identity war.
Today, belonging to a political tribe is attractive in itself, due to the fact that it gives a sense of belonging, being on the "right" side. What politics bring in a real sense – unemployment, inflation – is secondary.
At 1 time, politics was about getting a life. I am voting for a organization that will improve the quality of my life. present the point is to give life to others, especially those against whom I am opposed.
So I vote to make people's lives worse?
That's right. Prof. Snyder, who invented the concept of sadopolism, noted something similar. We are voting for a leader who will inflict intellectual pain on the opponents. But besides erstwhile we see physical pain caused by these "others," we are able to forgive quite a few our leader, our party. Even if our leaders neglect us, they do not give a better standard of living, they will deprive transport. It's crucial to see that these "others" truly suffer.
In the Polish right-wing infosphere this is certified with 1 slogan: "Can you hear howling? Excellent".
Should a leader regulation a tough hand, inflicting pain on others?
Yes, and we, joining this leader, are on the side of good. This is due to the fact that politics ceased to be a fight for business and began to be a metaphysical dispute – between good and bad. Between good and evil. We, on the side of good, destruct those who are on the side of evil. This is simply a return to pre-modern times.
This isn't just about the PiS voters, it's about everyone.
So the another side is the same?
I don't want to put a sign of equality here due to the fact that I'm not sure. But I am almost certain that on the another side – liberal – we are rather similar. delight note the emotion in the current campaign. 1 of the main motives for voting on Donald Tusk and opposition is that he will settle with those on the another side. Of course, we mean real bandits and thieves.
Donald Tusk says in meetings with voters: just remember, it concerns those who crossed the line of law. But why would he say that? due to the fact that he hears in the voice of his followers that this should apply to all the Law and Justice. "We'll turn the life of the PiS into the same hell as the PiS have turned ours in those last 8 years".
When did specified primal instincts begin to regulation us?
I don't know erstwhile they started to rule, but I do know erstwhile I saw them. On January 6, 2021, erstwhile the attack on the Capitol occurred. I felt that this was the beginning of these civilian wars, causing pain – besides physical.
In Poland, however, I noticed this already during the women's strikes. I was invited to 1 of the commercial stations after the demonstration of Mrs Biejat and Nowacka was treated with gas.
The writer said that after this, it must be a collapse of the PiS. I said, "Not at all." It was a image that the PiS voters wanted to see: "lefts" get theirs.
I said something that I had the impression that the audience didn't like. That is, if the situation were reversed, that is, the opposition would take power, and MPs Pawłowicz, Lichocka or Mrs Przyłębska would be treated the same way, there would besides be no reflection.
It was a minute erstwhile I realized that emotions were on both sides. And here there will be no mercy for either side.
It started erstwhile the Law and Justice ruled?
The merit of Jarosław Kaczyński in this work cannot be overestimated. And this has surely happened in the last 8 years, but this is simply a worldwide trend. It coincided with social media entering information bunkers. GAFA algorithms drove us to them, sat us down and ordered us to shoot each other.
We're not actually seeing each other. We're becoming mass. These algorithms separate us from each another while at the same time slying. It is known that these are issues of cliqueness, emotion. This has happened in the last 8 years under the Law and Justice. And of course, the PiS had an absolute model of precedence in what was done here.
Will this end with the end of the Law and Justice?
Nope. Politicians and social media owners gain from our hatred, mention straight to our brain. And our brain wants emotions and divisions that are based on distinguishing "your own and alien."
It was evolutionaryly profitable. In this sense, our mind, who inactive has a has on the African savanna, gets what allowed him to last for hundreds of thousands of years, and what in liberal democracy was restrained by public opinion leaders, arbitrators, courts, political commentators, national media. I see it from the commentator's position, whose business has become absolutely barren.
You're done commenting on politics, but then you come back.
I did. Now I am completely serious about ending my commentary career. I see there's no area for people like me. Readers will not be satisfied with what I am saying here, but present commentators who have their sympathy and their ideological antipathy, but effort to keep their integrity, are like elevators or telephone operators shortly after the automation of their profession. Nobody needs us. We're perfectly expendable.
On the another hand, there is simply a request for commentators who are like Death Officers, who shoot in the heads of marauders and shout hurrah, and malcontents who express any hesitation about the chances of winning the beloved party, shoot in the back of the front.
Do each side request their authority?
Yeah, the 1 that says it's good, and it'll get better. And whoever doubts that is the 5th column and must be branded. Then they're sent to that individual with a hammer.
I'm going back to serious things, just feeling sorry for myself. In this sense, these arbitrators – courts, commentators, national media – disappear. Their function is replaced by media communities, youtubers. It won't go away.
We're utilized to lawlessness, we're thirsty for bloodshed, but I don't know if it's besides strong. Is this conflict gonna get worse?
You didn't go besides far talking about blood lust. There are studies that show that 20% of Republicans and about the same percent of democrats to ask if they would want the others dead, answer yes.
Scary. Is that so in Poland?
I think so, if not more. If we were to do deeper and anonymous research, I think that respective percent of Poles would consider that physical elimination of the second is necessary.
A fewer days ago, Jarosław Kaczyński said that if anyone opposes him, then go to hell. It's a language.
Some time ago, I was in Laskowa, a bastion of PiS in Małopolska, where people were very cordial, helpful. 1 of the older women said if she could, she would have pulled Tusk out of the tv and strangled her. akin voices were repeated there.
I believe that we are on the eve of the outbreak of civilian wars, which is why I was talking about these events of January 6, 2021. Then 5 people were physically killed. They died as a consequence of a conflict filmed by Trump and supporters of conspiracy theories. In my opinion, this started the era of civilian wars. I am convinced that what we are dealing with present will lead to expanding conflicts, including physical ones.
I am not amazed that in this run we are much more frequently faced with physical acts of aggression than in 2020. I firmly believe that by 2025, erstwhile we have the presidential election, there will be fatalities.
The female you mentioned was in the information bunker due to the fact that that's the only way you know Tusk. They're good people, they're not monsters. This woman wants to kill another man due to the fact that he was introduced to her as an enemy. That's what replacing politics with morality. Bad people should be eliminated if they don't want to go to hell themselves. The enemies of the homeland must be killed. This is what tradition, honor and interests of our community dictate. This goes on all the time, plus there are migration problems, which is another aliens.
If power changes, is another leader able to suppress our urges a small bit, control our language, our emotions, or is this a road without coming back?
I think it's a road without going back. But it can happen faster or slower.
I'll put on a extremist thesis: PiS would be different if it were led by another leader. In short, PiS would not be so crazy, full of hostility if Morawiecki, Brudziński or Błaszczak were the president.
Why?
Because these are people who have their families, their interests. On the another hand, it is impossible to explain the policy of PiS without taking into account the phobia, obsession of Jarosław Kaczyński. Since I'm a polytologist, not a psychologist, this is where I'm staying.
I am convinced that the governments of the Law and Justice could be different if individual else were the president of the Law and Justice Party. We can see that the right can be like, for example, in Italy, where Mrs. Meloni is headed. If Salvini were there, the Italian right-wing policy would be different.
This is, of course, a dispute about whether an individual is just a product of time, or whether it is shaping its times. There are certain social processes that I believe are moving towards civilian wars.
But their pace depends on people. I know that under the removal of the PiS from power the fresh Prime Minister, the president can slow these processes down, but people will not change, geopolitical processes will not change, they will not change the conditions of social media.
Jarosław Kaczyński has specified a strong position that he is able to submit to everyone, another politicians blindly follow him?
His position in the organization is incomparable with the position of leader of any another party. He "remade" all these people in his own prayer.
Jarosław Kaczyński affects these people behaviorally. They behave differently with him. He deprived men of all dignity.
It's in their moves, their gestures. A classical example is Andrzej Duda, who is incapable to formulate any conviction without praise of "the holy memory of president Prof. Lech Kaczyński". You can see PiS politicians talking to Kaczyński and hunching, chaining, gnawing in their knees.
Unbelievable. He psychologically raped them. Only with specified people Jarosław Kaczyński has the pleasance of interacting. All others who had any individual dignity were expelled or left themselves.
They were incapable to endure any further humiliation that Kaczyński systematically forced them to do. He will give the highest state positions only to those whom he is convinced that their spines have already been broken many times, reshaped and are already made of plasticine. But all those who can keep their subjectivity are accused of the worst things. Unbelievable what Kaczyński did to these people, the organization and what he's trying to do to the country.
We've heard of a fewer loud departures, but beyond that, I feel that this organization appears to be monolith.
A period after my word of office, I was subjected to a test for my spine. And no details, but I'll say I didn't pass it. That's where my PiS problems started. I stayed there for a fewer more months, but I was out.
Did he check Kaczyński?
Yeah, we haven't met since.
You must have gotten under his skin.
No, it was a test to see if I could do a thing that would be embarrassing to me, and give him the assurance that anything could be done with me and given me all the positions. I failed the test.
I returned to cooperation with Kaczyński in Smolensk, went to his presidential staff. I figured the situation changed, so did he. We led a very good campaign, and then we went on vacation and Kaczyński started saying that Mr Komorowski was chosen by a misunderstanding, accusing us of losing the election.
Then I wrote him this celebrated letter that caused the formal breakup. It has formally occurred more than a year since the election, but de facto a period after I obtained a mandate.
Hurry.
Yeah, 'cause he had to find out who he was dealing with. He had previously given an interview in which he said that I might become the next PiS candidate in the presidential election. After that, there was a conversation in which he wanted to see if I caught the hook and if I could do something mean. due to the fact that I didn't, our paths went apart. Turns out I'm not cut out for tough politics.
Returning to your question: yes, everyone already passed this test, only that they passed it – unlike me – positively. They showed that they have no spine, and that for all that Kaczyński gives them, and he gives them a lot, they are able to make twines, gizmos, double flips. So you know why they do it.
For money.
I erstwhile wrote an article that I called the 4th Republic. Jarosław Kaczyński gave an chance to advance social, material, intellectually to specified quaternary people. Under average conditions of competition, Obietek would never be president of a large company in this part of Europe.
Thanks to his cooperation with Kaczyński, he can be like that, so he'll do anything. Under average conditions, he would possibly be respected...
...your Pcimia.
Yeah, most likely a very good municipality. All who became heads of news portals, editors of newspapers taken over by Orlen – these are the four. This is their Republic. This is the 4th Republic.
Is there any scandal that could overturn this government? What would gotta happen to a tough electorate getting pissed off at PiS?
Just losing your strength. As long as the PiS is strong, as long as it holds power, no scandal can deprive it of the support of most of its electorate.
Quite abstractly asking: if the PiS now decided to take 500+, the alleged 13th and 14th pensions, would that be the minute erstwhile a hard electorate would be pissed off?
Tough not, but the transactional might be like this. A tough electorate would know that this is the case by the Germans, Tusk, Brussels and refugees. And that electorate would take it, and he would think that we should stand stronger by Jarosław Kaczyński. On the another hand, there is simply a part of the alleged transactional electorate that will go to those who promise more.
So what could weaken the Law and Justice?
The only thing weakening the Law and Justice are election failures. erstwhile Kaczyński turned out to be disabled, politicians and any disappointed voters left the PiS.
The minute he consolidates power, preserves it and wields it, I can't imagine an affair that could permanently take any large part of the electorate distant from the PiS. '
I don't want to fantasize, but something truly scary would have happened. And we won't see Jarosław Kaczyński murdering a cat, just a video of PiS president signing a 3rd tower deal.
And to our imagination, would a video of us seeing Jarosław Kaczyński execution a cat would talk more?
Yeah. I don't want to proceed due to the fact that this is going to lead our conversation to absurdity. But this is how our brain works: seeing the president of the PiS murdering cats would surely have more effect on most of the electorate than seeing Jarosław Kaczyński, who takes a bribe in the form of 4 dense bags of money and says, "Spasiba" or "Danke schon".
That is, the scandal which in Poland overthrows the government is 1 which appeals to the imagination of Poles, curses, costly dinners, not respirators from the arms dealer for PLN 70 million.
I'll run a test on you. Do you know how much we're gonna get from KPO? But exactly.
I don't know.
I don't know either. I'll say more: people don't separate billions from millions. Therefore, they do not care that we will lose 170 billion EUR or 700 million PLN. It's more or little the same for people. This is abstraction.
For us $50,000 bribe is something understandable. We number it on our earnings. And no one's seen a billion. A politician who uses these phrases speaks in vain.
I erstwhile counted that the funds from the KPO, that's 1 infirmary per district. And that's translateable. That's the way to talk to people anyway. And in that sense, the scandal that is meant to be that individual has embezzled millions or billions is of no importance to voters.
Apparently, the biggest impression on Poles was made by the alleged awards and celebrated words of then Prime Minister Beata Szydło: "this money just belonged to us". It was about respective tens of thousands of zlotys, not about 70 million zlotys, as in the case of the envelope elections. This was reflected in the polls – 8 percent decrease.
Equally shocking was the information about the earnings of 2 advisors, Glapinski's employee. It was something that could piss people off. This shoe, both Mrs. Szydło and 2 Glapinski consultants in a confrontation with the earnings of the average Pole.
Mrs Szydło's statements can be much more painful for Poles than the failure of billions of euros.
Our head remembers about 7 things. The brighter of us will remember seven, a small little – five.
I'm going to do an experimentation on you: how much are you able to replace with 100 affairs?
Yeah, ad hoc, possibly 10. These scandals were so much that they were hard to find during the 2 word of government. They blend, mix.
That's precisely how our head works. Of these hundreds of PiS scandals, we remember 10, out of a 100 specifics Tusk – five.
You can't talk to people like that due to the fact that it's coming together. Will the opposition realize any of this? Yeah. They effort to explain it, show it. It's not like they can't do it completely.
I don't want to complain, but I've written 3 books that are textbooks for winning elections. I would say that a limited number of politicians are interested. This is: 'Homo politicalus sapiens. Biological aspects of the political game'; 'Inhumanity, that is, how biological sciences explain the crisis of liberal democracy and indicate ways of defending it'; and the 3rd 'Stof the world's most celebrated political experiments and their meaning for knowing politics'.
These are election winning textbooks, and I've been virtually called by 3 politicians who said 'a good book, we might request it, thanks for writing it'.
However, I do not feel that this knowledge, which is not secret, is utilized in this campaign. If I was to fishy anyone that he was getting acquainted with the investigation of neurobiologists, cognitiveists, this is unfortunately the PiS.
They are the ones who act on our powerfully conditioned fears. erstwhile you see these 4 referendal questions and PiS narratives, we see that this is very conscious of playing on the most primitive feelings – a sense of danger, danger. We pay more attention to what is threatening us than giving us a chance. Fear was evolutionaryly profitable. And we are the descendants of those more fearful, cowardly. That's what all the PiS spots are about.
And the slogan of the safety campaign.
Yes, due to the fact that safety is absolutely crucial in this campaign. And it must be made clear: Tusk did not let go, he understood that he had to play the same.
It's not that fear and fear work only the Law and Justice. These PO spots threatening the influx of immigrants from Africa and Asia were practically indistinguishable from those produced by PiS. Spin doctors of the PO felt that it was impossible to win these elections without serving the fears of Poles, which are mostly justified, given the overall – damn dangerous – situation around the world. People have the right to feel threatened and search safety in their country.
Now, don't you think we'd be impressed by Rywin or the tape?
None. We're in a different time. These are pre-World War II times. These are different customs, different media order, different policy-making. Welcome to the fresh times. New, not necessarily wonderful, times, in a new, not necessarily wonderful world. It was expected to be optimistic.
I'll give you another chance at an optimistic punch line. Tomasz Sawczuk in "The Liberal Culture" wrote that the PiS had divided into people and elites. "No event can be abrogated by this division, no number of scandals on the side of the PiS will overthrow the government". Sawczuk believes that the PO should become a popular party, and the PiS should push into the position of a new, greedy and violent elite. Would you agree?
Thesis is rather trivial, if I realize it as calling the PO to be a popular party. There are 2 types of populism: the 1 based on the negative aspects of human nature and the another based on the affirmative ones.
I will effort to explain this: everything in us – good and bad – comes from nature. It is by nature that we are selfish, brutal, xenophobic, but by nature we are besides cooperative, empathic. In this sense, there are populisms that are based on the negative course of our nature, but there are populisms that are based on positives.
If I were to advise the PO, although I do not want to, then: I would not quit populism, but I would build it on the affirmative qualities of our nature.
Which is?
For example, in the pursuit of cooperation, cooperation, empathy, aspiration building – being better than others, but better than themselves.
To guarantee a better life, not to inflict suffering on others. If the opposition wants to defeat the Law and Justice permanently, it cannot quit populism, being popular, popular. Let it build on the affirmative qualities of our nature. I think this could work.
Only better populists can defeat populists?
Other populists. Populists based on negative qualities of our nature can overcome populists based on affirmative human nature.
Is that the affirmative accent?
Yeah. We did it, though with difficulty.
