You're the only Polish Pulitzer winner for photography. How do you do that?
I didn't even dream of it due to the fact that Pulitzer is reserved for people from another geographical zone. Associated Press, in which I work, sometimes gets a Pulitzer, for example, a year after me got it 11 photojournalists for working with Kenya.
My Pulitzer was besides collective, for 5 journalists for pictures from Moscow from the alleged Janayev Regiment, organized on the night of 18 to 19 August 1991. I took a photograph of the Moscow Rambo, which on the tank after the end of the coup in a joyful motion shows a sign of victory, and in the barrel of the tank has a red carnation. Let us remember that only 4 people died throughout this story, and shortly the 70-year-old empire of evil ceased to exist, the russian Union dissolved. So our prize was greatly influenced by the historical moment. I didn't really know the bosses would choice my image and send it to the contest.
I heard at the time you thought the AP picked your image wrong.
Yes, erstwhile I got my image by fax after 2 days, due to the fact that that was the means of communication, I was amazed they had just chosen it. all reporter wants his image to be strong so that lightning strikes. And mine was so peaceful. A fewer months later, the boss comes and says, "What do you mean?" It's apparent that the revolution has gone smoothly, and hundreds of millions of people in the planet have been glad that it ended this way. I was taught that the image is to be strong, to be almost bled out, due to the fact that only then can it be appreciated. And here wins the image calm, the hero rejoices, people applaud. I thought it was besides sweet to fit in to illustrate the communicative about the end of the USSR.
How do you remember erstwhile you photographed democratic changes in Poland, Romania, the erstwhile Yugoslavia and Russia? It was a photographer's paradise, wasn't it?
Yes, it's an highly interesting time. Of course, there were concerns. erstwhile I was flying to Moscow – to be honest – I had a bit of a scare. We flew an almost empty KLM aircraft from Amsterdam through Warsaw to Moscow, due to the fact that everyone, knowing what was happening in Moscow, canceled the trip. We had American television, Krzysztof Miller, Leszek Wdowiński from Reuter – and we all felt anxious. But we land, nobody stops us, we walk through a briefing, a taxi to the office, I get 2 people to aid me, and we get started. It was akin with going to Lithuania. But we waited 2 days for a plane to Romania, and yet we took the next 2 days by train to Bucharest, not knowing what would happen to us. We arrive, we pull out suitcases, due to the fact that the photojournalist then – not like today, that only a backpack with laptop, cameras and a telephone – had a pair of suitcases where there was a darkroom for negatives, a paper darkroom, a typewriter, a paper dryer, a movie dryer and a transmitter. We're going out with these rollers on the platform in Bucharest, and here's the shots. I've never been in the military, I've heard Kalashnikov for the first time, and alternatively of falling on the ground, I'm grappling with suitcases. A completely unnatural reaction. Then everything was different. Another technology of taking pictures and yet another fear. Today, erstwhile I go to demonstrations, I grin due to the fact that the police are aggressive, but it's inactive not much compared to the 1980s.
You are 1 of the longest continuously working Polish press photojournalists, for 4 decades in AP agency. How did you start?
I was fortunate due to the fact that Solidarity broke out in Poland during my youth. And fortunate that AP was looking for a photojournalist here to photograph Lech Walesa. In the end, it took luck to take any good pictures that the agency accepted and then wanted to proceed working with you. I was on an internship for six months, after which I signed on 6 December 1981. And on 13 December, we were already under martial law. A day later, the boss takes my bag and says, “No shooting until the situation is normalized and it is clear that you can take pictures and have authoritative accreditation.” I remember precisely that on January 11, 1982, I got a work licence paper and I could go back to shooting.
But I guess it was crucial that I was emotional about things. Although erstwhile I came to the AP, I didn't know anything about politics. I started shooting with sports, shows and tv shows. I had to decision rapidly and teach politics. Now I want to laughter erstwhile young photographers ask, “Who is it?”
What determines that a image becomes a symbol of its time?
Lucky again. You should be in the right time, in the right place and take a image horizontally alternatively than vertically, which today, in the days of Facebook and Instagram, is the most important. I know 2 people in the state of war who took a image of Kina Moscow with the “Time of the Apocalypse”, akin to the celebrated photograph of Chris Niedenthal. I've been looking at these pictures, and I've been trying to traverse copies of them to get the same firepower as Niedenthal, and I've shown them to others. They were similar, but they couldn't make it. It was decided to be 2 or possibly 4 meters higher or to the side. That's life. I'm giving this example due to the fact that the image of Krzysztof Niedenthal is about the full martial law, it's special. Others are interesting, but they don't have the same strength.
Give an example of your pictures, where – following your intuition – you managed to capture something special.
I callback well the photograph I call 10:0 from my visit to Warsaw in the 1980s Vice president George Bush. In those days, agencies were doing investigation on photos published in newspapers, mine was in 10 newspapers, and the competition did not break. We called it a photograph play. We felt valued, no one's doing it today. Bush is standing with Wałęsa at Father Popiełuszko's grave. They wouldn't let me in, so to save the day, I rushed out to the street and took a image of only Wales, Bush and a wreath, alleged close-up, tight frame. This utilized to be done, mostly in tight leadership, present it gets wider to show context, color, environment. This image had everything you need. Or another situation: we are waiting for the Bush and Wales press conference. Everybody's standing there, and I've separated from the group and waited for them to walk. They go and laughter at the crack – and that was my picture. For 40 years, you have a chance to take quite a few these.
In fresh years, photos from Poland have returned to the front pages of newspapers and services. Are you happy?
Whenever a image is on the first or second side of the newspaper, the photographer is satisfied. due to the fact that he's got proof that his work curious someone. My German friend, as shortly as he sees a image of me in the paper somewhere, shoots them and sends me a text. I'm happy about it all time, due to the fact that it's just a image in the paper, decently arranged, that's the end of the occupation for me. Although they don't pay me from the number of photos published, I have a fixed salary. A lot depends on the timing. Sometimes he won't make it. I remember the day Wałęsa returned from internment. A day later, Leonid Brezhniev, the leader of the USSR, was to be buried. We fought against time for the return of Wałęsa from internation to get into the agency before the funeral. I stayed in Gdańsk, a friend went to Warsaw, my home was printed and delivered at 7:00 a.m. due to the fact that the ceremony was at 9:00 a.m. And it didn't work. The ceremony was more important, so he went on the front page of the global Herald Tribune and my Walesa on the second. Many times in history, Poland was unlucky. erstwhile Wałęsa won the 1990 election, Palestinian terrorists blew up a military station in Bethlehem. So we fell off the front pages of the papers.
But thanks to the Law and Justice, we're back to them again.
Certainly thanks to women's strike and their celebrated umbrellas in Castle Square. Everyone wrote about tens of thousands of women protesting, so you had to show those thousands. The only option was to take a image from the tower of St. Anne's Church. There was lightning: the roofs of the old town and thousands of umbrellas downstairs. Today, fortunately for a photojournalist, you can easy send quite a few photos over the internet. In the 1980s, sending 1 image with my transmitter lasted 10 to 15 minutes unless there was a disturbance. Colored – twice as long. And it had to be done by 2:00, due to the fact that then the first editions of newspapers closed, and if in Japan – even in the morning. In 1989, during a wave of escapes of people from East Germany to Germany, I broadcast at 3:00 a.m. via the Warsaw embassy on Saska Kępa. My chief boss was waiting for these photos in Frankfurt, that was the interest in events. No 1 will realize today. Sometimes I take to any meetings about photography my old transmitter that makes quite a few noise. Listeners ask to shut it down due to the fact that it's disturbing. And I always had to perceive to those squeals to catch any interference. Besides, Poland was so crucial that I always had the latest equipment and stock of films, while my colleagues from the country took any pictures and then cut off the unexposed film, for reuse, due to the fact that they had limits. erstwhile a fresh camera came into the market, I almost got it right away. Sometimes I felt stupid in front of another photographers.
What do you usually do now?
Politics, very frequently protests, due to the fact that Poland is now known for its problems with justice, media and polexit. I take pictures of protests, and I grin at them a lot, due to the fact that that's where cool, unstamped people come in. There's no aggression, she comes from outside, from police and countermanifests. After all, everyone has the right to hold the flag of the European Union to which we belong. And a Polish policeman throws himself at them like he saw the banner of the Teutonic Knights close Grunwald.
The planet is watching us for completely different reasons than it was a fewer decades ago? Or are they the same reasons, just fresh heroes?
The subject has not changed, the characters have changed, but they are fighting for the same thing – dignity, freedom and being part of Western Europe. Of course, we are competing with the planet again due to the fact that if I send a photograph of a tiny demonstration, my editor says, “Czarek, you know, there are most likely 5,000 specified demonstrations in the planet right now, why are you sending it to me?” I get that a lot. We don't have adequate people to demonstrate, we don't usage our rights. Although... I besides saw how fewer people were in the background behind Wales in 1988 erstwhile the shipowners themselves interrupted the strike after 2 weeks. I was very disappointed at the time. Meanwhile, there was shortly a breakthrough, talks, a circular table.
Many of your last frames are symbolic. For example, the protestors' fight with the police for the EU flag or a photograph of a police officer utilizing teardrop gas against a Member. What do these pictures say about Poland?
Similar pictures can be seen from protests in Paris, so we could be considered normal. But there the police are ruthless against the violent crowd, and here we are towards peaceful people, frequently women. I don't realize the police's behaviour towards Granny Kasi. How can an old female be treated like this? Yes, they can limit her ability to pass, but they're pulling and pulling her? I don't even remember the '80s. And today's protesters are peaceful, there were no stones at all. Races, fights, etc., are on the march of independence, but then the police turn their heads and don't react.
During the protests last year, police were accused respective times of contributing to the escalation of conflict and unnecessary violence.
Their primary method was to approach us, despite the pandemic, to step on my shoe and put my hand in a lens that is my eye. And I've heard quite a few words, "I don't push, you push."
There was a celebrated push from Margot, there was their aggression – there were so many of them, and at the same time they couldn't handle 1 person.
Have you always been scared?
No, I'm not afraid. But I have a regulation that I don't get into a conversation with them and avoid direct contact. We have press cards, but inactive we have questions: “How do I know you are a journalist?” Then I say, "How come I know you're a cop, I'm so old, I've seen disguises."
(We are passed by by an older female with a rainbow bag on her shoulder, Czarek momentarily: Oh, see? Grandma Kasia!).
During 1 of the demonstrations last year the photojournalist “The Solidarity Week” was injured.
Scandal. I don't know what I'd do if I were Tom, but I just kept going, and I didn't get there. I don't think I'd get this close to seeing them have guns. And the fight for compensation for the writer lasts for years, so it was with Robert Sobkowicz's 1999 case, a photojournalist who lost his eye while working for the demonstration.
Are you following what photographers do for the Public Protest Archives?
Great idea. Unfortunately, I can't cooperate with anyone as a staffer AP. I support them and I support them. These pictures look good. Fantastic that young people so order chaos and show our times.
You hear from PAP photographers that they gotta colour reality in power?
I hear that PAP has come up with a simple thought – simply not sending photojournalists to certain events. There's quite a few talk about the times of censorship for PRL. erstwhile even CAF/PAP did an exhibition of photos withdrawn by censorship. And present it's just self-censorship and these pictures are gone. We don't send a reporter, no pictures. The censorship trick was that I brought 2 pictures. 1 of Jaruzelski's censors played, putting the stamp Z37 – for publication. And the another 1 had no stamp, and it was not allowed to be published. It did not be due to the fact that it had no stamp, and another stamp was not. present it's even easier – they just don't go everywhere.
Many of your colleagues have abandoned their profession due to their earnings. You're the fortunate one, do you have any credit?
I don't have any credit, but I don't make millions. I have a fixed salary. After 4 years, I got a 1.5 percent raise. I have a regular income and I live as he allows me. But it's terrifying erstwhile my friends tell me that for the image that went in the west paper, they got 4.5 gold. due to the fact that it turns out the agency they work for has entered any weird barter with another agency. quite a few people quit due to the fact that it's a occupation for crazy people. There are inactive quite a few newspapers who behave in a bad way without signing our photos, breaking our laws. What is the problem with giving a appropriate signature: “Maciek Nabrdalik for “The fresh York Times”, showing that he took the image for the newspaper? Look on the Internet, couldn't our newspapers do that? No cost, no prestige.
You've been a day at work for 40 years. How do you deal with crises?
I don't have crises, but I've been working on it for a long time. You don't talk about my work at home, I shut down completely. Of course, for safety reasons, I'm watching the news to see if it's been fucking anywhere. I'm up to speed, but I've learned to let in and out with 1 ear. And if necessary, I'll drop everything and fly. erstwhile the hall in Silesia collapsed, I made ski jumps in the mountains – but I went to Silesia. I worked 37 hours all the time, that was adrenaline.
You've been taking quite a few pictures of Lech Wales for decades. You've got a close relationship. How would you describe her?
You know, he, his wife, sons and daughters will admit me. I went to the AP to keep an eye on Wales. I took pictures of him on his first day at work. In time, I was getting closer. erstwhile Wałęsa was interned, and we waited for him in the Zaspa, his wife went out and asked me to aid her boy in mathematics. Then, after a fewer years, I meet Wałęsa in Kraków, and he asks me, “Are you inactive alive?” The relation is ongoing. I saw him a period ago.
In Poland we have late asked ourselves a serious question: can a writer be friends with a politician?
I wasn't that close to Walesa. The fact that I will control 2 or 3 sentences with him – I think – is not a problem. Everyone has to choose, we in AP are not allowed to drink with politicians.
Do you take pictures for pleasure, do you have any projects of your own?
I have any folders. erstwhile I'm out of town and the image suits me – I do it. I besides do self-portraits. It's fun, and it comes from the fact that in the 1980s there was an unwritten regulation that you don't take pictures of journalists. So we don't have pictures from those years. Niedenthal didn't photograph me, and I didn't photograph Niedenthal, at most our photos are in IPN.
I'm trying to make up for that time cheerfully, making selfie a real camera. Sometimes erstwhile I see people taking stiff pictures at the Palace of Culture, I come and say, "Make a jack, it'll be more fun."
But at work for the agency, I gotta remember the rules. We only usage jpg files, you can't do anything on your computer but what you could do in the darkroom. We – press photographers – have a harder time. My colleague utilized autolevels to equalize the contrast and colour of the picture, and he got fired. I don't have programs on my computer that can change the photos so it doesn't tempt. I know individual who removed a part of his camera from the photo, and due to that, he got fired from work with photos and the full archive, due to the fact that no one's going to check everyone 1 by one. I'm all for that. It's about honesty.
Why are you working Nikon?
Nikon was my first serious camera. We've been waiting for Wales at the Solec Hotel, I've put my practice aside, and my boss says, "What are you doing?" We're going to the office, and he's taking the nickel with the engine out of the closet and 2 or 3 lenses. Shock, another world. Then I slept with that Nikon. And that's what I've got left, and I think the nikons have the best lenses in the world. Then the company switched to another equipment to aid each another in the band. I couldn't decision to the canon for 2 years. Now I'm working with Sony's camera due to the fact that the full company's gone to that brand.
Do you have digitally archived your analog photographs yet?
I've got them on the hard drive. I just request dates to find them. I'm doing it as I go along. It's worse with pictures from the '80s. I inactive have a beautiful good memory, and I know where it is.
There are almost 26,000 photographs in the AP library with your photos for sale.
It's just part of it. The library has existed since 1997, the remainder is in the archive, boxes set up like in a wholesaler. There's a problem with archiving all over the world, and sometimes I say I can archive for a 3rd of my salary. But they're besides frightened of losing data, due to the fact that what happens if the network goes down like Facebook last time?
You made large money, you had an interesting life, you drove around the world... Did you always feel this was gonna end?
I'm certain it'll be time to quit soon, but despite those 41 years in the profession, I don't feel burned out. Though the prestige of the profession erstwhile and again cannot be compared. But I'm the 1 who's madder than you are about to go after reporters. This today's hatred for the photojournalist "Gazeta Wyborcza" for allegedly throwing candy at exile children in Michałów, these police actions against journalists, obstructing our work – this is simply a problem for me. Why are they doing this to us? After all, we are doing our job, and the freedom to do it is enshrined in the Constitution. Today's issue: we are not invited to welcome the president of Austria, which takes place in the courtyard of the Presidential Palace. They say it's a pandemic. 10 reporters over 3,000 square feet are expected to be a threat? I don't take pictures for myself, I work.
On the another hand, I realize that present I don't gotta hide with a camera like in the 1980s. Even then, we weren't doing a individual search like today.
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This conversation between Mark Strzelecki and Czarek Sokołowski comes from the magazine “Press” – Issue No 11-12/2021.
