Hołownia in an interview with naTemat: Mr. Kaczyński, you are disgusting and you should confess

Zdjęcie: Szymon Hołownia fot. Piotr Molecki / East News, grafika Gabriela Wróblewska / naTemat.pl


– Cleaning up the brothel that PiS leaves in the country will not be easy or pleasant, due to the fact that these guys are not another civilized political party, they are trying to change the strategy of the Republic of Poland, but I did not get into politics so that it would be easy and pleasant for me – says Szymon Hołownia, leader of Poland 2050, in an interview for naTemat.pl. Anna Dryjańska: Are you an agent of the bishops? Szymon Hołownia: Who? I have listed the top 5 fears of net users about you. And 1 comment is repeated in particular: the presumption that you are an agent of the bishops in politics. There are clues: you tried to join a convent twice. Yes, 25 years ago. And I came to the conclusion that this is not my place. I effort to believe, I practice, this is simply a very crucial sphere for me, but I am besides very critical of the direction in which the organization Church in Poland is presently going. I have been expressing this for a very long time. delight remember that during the presidential run I was denied communion in church and publically scolded and insulted from any pulpits. I am surely not a favourite of the Polish Episcopate. I believe that church and state should be separated. After all, if I were the "agent of the bishops", I would not immediately put the 12 points of separation of church and state as the first program proposal developed by our think tank. Now you're in the opposition, you can say anything. The question is what will you do after the election. I'm going to do precisely what I'm saying now due to the fact that I have 1 first name and 1 last name. I believe that for the sake of the State, but besides for the sake of the Church, the Church and the State must be separated as shortly as possible. You request to halt flying with the slogans "and the Church this and the Church that", just sit down and do it. And I'm ready to do it. So talking about me being an agent of the bishops makes as much sense as saying I'm a reptilian or a German agent. late I read on any portal that I am an agent of the Jesuits, on another - that the leftist branch of Brussels, somewhere else they argued that we are a licensed opposition founded by PiS, which will turn around if necessary, and in another place that we are a organization founded by Tusk technology that pretends to be different but is actually the same. More than 2 years in politics have most likely made me permanently immune to reading nonsense about myself. They, of course, have only 1 intent - the old Latin proverb "audacter calumniare, semper aliquid haeret", which means slander boldly, something always sticks. There's always individual going to think that due to the fact that you're in politics, you can get crap thrown at you. This is complete nonsense. It is besides hard for me to find individual who approached the separation of Church and State as diligently as Poland 2050. Donald Tusk besides talks about this, the Left has always demanded it. Only we don't have passwords, but a painfully circumstantial plan, broken down into points and actions. And the determination to carry out this plan. I will be happy to sit down with Donald and Włodek next day to say: "Look, here are our 12 points that have been online for 2 years, what do you think about it? If we have a coalition, we will do these 12, do you want to do 11 Or do you want to add a couple of yours? Concordat: terminate or leave? Estonia, Portugal, Croatia, Slovakia, Slovenia and many another countries besides have concordats. And what about this? In our public debate, the concordat, which is not easy to terminate, has become a symbol - a bag into which all problems between the State and the Church are thrown and people are deceived that if the concordat disappears, they will vanish too. In the meantime, there is plenty of concrete work to be done without fixating on the concordat. First of all, it is essential to change the interpretative declaration to the concordat, which has most likely not been changed in Poland since the times of Cimoszewicz. And then fulfill our points. For example, it cannot be the case that the concordat states that the state provides conditions for teaching religion in schools, and in practice the bishop has the veto power to decide how many hours there will be. This must be endured immediately. It should not be a bishop, or even a minister, who should decide this, but the school community: how many religion lessons it wants to order for its students, due to the fact that it has specified a demand. So the problem is how the concordat is applied, not the fact that the concordat exists. This is simply a substance that the opposition can deal with immediately after winning the elections. What about the Joint Commission of the Government and the Episcopate? The Roman Catholic Church is privileged due to the fact that it "owns" it, and another denominations are grouped in a separate, collective commission. I haven't explored this subject in detail, but I don't see any problem with matters of all spiritual denominations being dealt with within 1 commission at the Ministry of the Interior and Administration. However, this is not the biggest problem in State-Church relations. The confusion of the orders, secular and religious, is simply a powerful problem. This, on the part of the State, can only be unscrewed by a clear and decisive attitude of politicians who would gotta halt treating the Church as a tasty morsel, due to the fact that it is simply a reservoir of possible voters - and let's face it, not only PiS excelled at this. A possible corruption-generating mechanics in this relation is the Church Fund, the amount of which is always determined by the current parliamentary majority. It should be abolished and replaced with a taxation deduction with an increase in the donation cap so that people can decide which church they want to support, if any. The issue of price lists in cemeteries needs to be put in order and taken into account. There are quite a few things that should be dealt with as shortly as possible. How do you imagine Poland after PiS? I would like this vacuum cleaner, which will should be started to clean up after PiS, to work intensively, but as short as possible. All my adult life I have been observing this vicious ellipse in politics: a fresh power comes and for a word or 2 it says that sorry, but it cannot do what it promised, due to the fact that the predecessors, so we will clean and clean. PiS has mastered this narrative. delight listen: they are still, after 7 years of power, partisans from the forest, bravely defending themselves against the immense army of "salon", European - and not only - devils, they are constantly tidying up after Tusk, they are constantly "dealed" hands and wings. I do not want the next elections and what will follow them to be another phase of PiS's civilian war with PO, which will be watched with expanding discouragement by 15 million voters who will say that it is not their war, not their business, and elections won't happen. We no longer have time for interior warfare. This blocks us and does not let us to deal with the most crucial issues: energy transformation, the deficiency of which will shortly lead us to poverty, the quality of public services, without which another pandemic will kill half a million, not 2 100 1000 of us, raising the level of education, without which we will be left forever assembly plant country… The planet truly won't wait for us. He doesn't wait anymore. Sure, PiS needs to be chased as shortly as possible, but like an intruder, like an obstacle that blocks the door erstwhile an ambulance comes to a patient with a heart attack. The communicative should be about the patient, not the hooligan at the door. I realize that it is easier for any people to sale their goods by arousing fear, I would alternatively inspire hope - it's better fuel. If it's only about fear, these elections will again be about the mobilization of the 2 iron electorates of the 2 largest parties, nothing more. And I want to motivate at least any of the 50 percent to vote. Poles who have stayed at home on election day. Show them that they can hope for something better. And win with specified a majority, a million or 2 votes, that Kaczyński would not think of falsifying the results or not giving up power. The first example from the edge: shocking children with pedophilia in the fresh book by Minister Czarnek for HiT. It is hard to rise the level of education without tidying up this plot. And it's not a one-day job. That's right, but it shouldn't take 4 years. You can't live in a home with a vacuum cleaner moving all the time. Look how many people emigrated from Poland precisely due to the fact that they had had adequate of this noise. They said that they lame this life, preferring to start over somewhere else. Czarnek's idiocy must be dismissed immediately, just like his 19th-century school concept, but fresh solutions must be ready to replace them. Poland 2050 already has them. On our democratic side, there is simply quite a few desire to clean up after PiS, and it undoubtedly needs to be done: in the judiciary, public media, state-owned companies ... It needs to be done, but you can't fixate on it. And immediately show the next step: honestly telling people what we do, why. Cleaning up the brothel that PiS leaves in the country will not be easy or pleasant, due to the fact that these guys are not another civilized political party, they are trying to change the strategy of the Republic of Poland, but I did not get into politics to make it easy and pleasant for me. Opinion polls give the opposition a chance to take power - assuming, of course, that after the elections you will get along with each other. I believe in victory, although I do not know what its scale will be. It must be a wave. And the wave is possible only if people imagine and believe in another world. Fear is the stronger motivator, but only hope can keep us from losing power as shortly as we take it. I can see how people are tired of politics. I am now traveling around Poland and this fatigue is visible everywhere. Reluctance, anger, helplessness, frustration… These are the emotions that dominate the country. It is hard to build electoral success on them. But I besides see genuine joy in our successes - and those crucial for circumstantial groups of people, specified as almost 900 students from Belarus and later from Ukraine, whom our volunteers have been teaching Polish for a year, but besides those crucial for hundreds of thousands of Poles, specified as bringing our thought of credit holidays to fruition. That's why I truly want us to sit down with Kosiniak, Tusk and Czarzasty and talk about school, transport, wellness care... It's time for something positive. People want to live a average life and they are waiting for what we gotta offer them, and we have a lot. Do you regret crying over the Constitution? NO. We are talking 2 years after the first circular of the presidential election. That run was an unbelievable experience. So many twists and turns, so many scams that PiS has been doing... Only PiS? I learned then how dirty, or simply stupid, short-sighted, this game can be, besides on the side of those who are on "our" side - they have the most beautiful values on their banners. This mode turns on even the best, coolest, full of good intentions. There's always a self-apology at the end: "Sorry, that's politics." Does it turn on for you too? This is 1 of the strongest temptations in politics, a origin of fraud, nepotism, egotism: "If I mean well - everything I do is by definition good." The ends justify the means. There must be victims. I am aware of this mechanics and have installed an - I hope effective - alarm system. Coming back to your question: I do not regret crying over the Constitution. These were tears of anger, helplessness and frustration at the insolence of the highest officials of my country. I remember that morning: I came back from a walk loaded with information that PiS would again violate the Constitution. I thought "fuck, I can't do it anymore", and it just poured out of me. After all, I wasn't whimpering there, but - agitated to the utmost - I swore revenge on them. erstwhile I go out to people, I want to show them who I am. I'm not going to pretend. If individual expects to get a jukebox built by PR people, individual who will take everything with a consecutive face, then they gotta look elsewhere. They were laughing at you. And what about this? After everything, I talked to Mirek Różański, the erstwhile commander-in-chief of the Polish army, my advisor, a tough guy like no other. He enumerated for me all the US presidents, generals, leaders who, moved or agitated, wept in public. So basically, present I want to laughter at this poverty-machism of any of our eaters from Wiejska, whose only political competence is jumping on Twitter on a wave that individual else made. If there's 1 thing I'm feeling sorry for today, it's that I made that wave for them, and they could ride it for a while. They didn't deserve it. Would you do the same today? NO. Firstly, not to give satisfaction to the above-mentioned. Secondly, present I see that PiS is simply a waste not only of tears, but besides of all emotions. You gotta clench your fists and do what needs to be done. Today, if I'm moved, it's what's going on at home. I have a wife, 2 tiny daughters – it is in them that I place my deepest feelings. What is making you furious today? Apart from the waste of time and artificial divisions promoted by Kaczyński? How our country's position in the global arena has decreased. erstwhile we go to Brussels, we see how the Polish government is treated. How? Like individual who is waiting for him to sit down at the table again, due to the fact that for now he is standing on it, sitting under it, shouting, dancing, banging his shoe on the tabletop, doing everything but talking normally. We don't deserve what they make of us. Today, due to Putin's war, we are one more time in the center of the world's attention. We have become a frontline state. We request unchangeable relations with our neighbours. We request money. The last thing the planet and we request is for us to become Orban's second Hungarians. In specified a place, at specified a time. A fewer more years of these dummies' rule, and Poland will completely waste its possible in the EU, the concept of "two-speed Europe" will be realized, where we will be in the second or 3rd one. In a fewer years, Kaczyński will go somewhere - and my children will gotta deal with the crap he will leave them. What right does he gotta waste their lives, not his own?! What else excites or annoys you? It pisses me off that our money is being spent on stupid stuff alternatively of the things it should be spent on. Do you know what is the dream of thousands of Poles now? A fresh national mythology textbook? A fanciful mega-airport? Putting kids in jail - due to the fact that that's what our government does? NO. Thousands of Poles present dream of being able to buy a heat pump with their own money, possibly with a small support from the state. due to the fact that the government is lying erstwhile it says there will be adequate coal and gas for the coming winter. And there are no heat pumps. People hear that electricity is going to go up 200% next year. They want to set up a solar farm. Ba – they would like to gain money on electricity production by building a tiny power plant with a neighbor. But no - due to the fact that the chains refuse, due to the fact that promentors request to increase the tribute. And this is in a situation where the government receives over PLN 20 billion from emissions trading all year, which is practically for nothing. You're asking me what's pissing me off? It annoys me that this waste of time and money makes us so susceptible to Putin's blackmail today. It besides annoys me how frequently Polish politics is about nothing. Its subject is not about problems that request to be solved, but about boyish excitement about who has bigger - let's say fists. This cult of power, political muscle, idolizing the concept of potential. I see any unresolved complexes in this, sometimes I want to puke erstwhile I look at how many couples go to these faction fights, deliberating who will have 2 percent points more and who will have 3 percent points less. erstwhile I entered politics, I was convinced that a known face alone was not enough, that I had to put a concrete proposal on the table. After 2 years, our program has thousands of pages, ranging from Church-State relations, through wellness care, education reform, to counteracting the climate catastrophe. We truly learned this lesson. And present others are downloading from us. PiS "borrows" many of our things. This was the first lesson I learned in politics: copyrights don't apply here. I late spoke with a pensioner who supports PiS. He gave me his view of the energy debate. He said that if the situation deteriorated and he couldn't afford fuel, he had no problem collecting brushwood. He argued that under the PO there would be nothing in Poland, including forests. And you're talking about photovoltaics and heat pumps. You can't convince everyone, possibly this 1 too. It's hard. Trying to convince everyone is simply a temptation. To quote Yuval Noah Harari: if a politician in a liberal democracy has much more than 50 percent of the support, then either there is simply a war going on or something is incorrect with this liberal democracy. Not everyone needs to be convinced, but adequate people to take work for Poland. Democratic opposition must win 15-20. percent votes, i.e. to convince 2-3 million more Poles than PiS. We, Poland 2050, gotta convince another 4-7 percent. voters. These are not uncountable values. Let's not waste energy on futile attempts to unchain those who do not want to be unchained from Kurski's tv sets. And we have something to convince. due to the fact that we truly know what to do to make it 23 and not 13 degrees in the home in winter. So that a kid can talk English fluently after simple school. erstwhile I go to Silesia and talk to miners, I know that they could embarrass many politicians. They are well aware that the energy transition is something that simply needs to be done. "Stop talking to us about holy coal during all Barbórka, show us the plan" – they say. They want to know erstwhile and how they will be able to retrain, where they will find a job, what will happen to their children. As Poland 2050, we treat this issue as a priority. people with blue newts, something abstract that they don't gotta care about. present they know that the energy transition is simply a fundamental national issue: 1 that will find the temperature of their home and whether they will have hot water. Hot water in the tap? "It's a paradox of past that hot tap water, which so many have complained about as an unambitious goal, may become a luxury after 30 years of transformation. But it's not funny. And Tusk doesn't piss you off? The minute he returned, Poland's support for 2050 collapsed No. It's a challenge. Of course, you can wade into idle gibberish and ask whether if he hadn't come back, we would be in a different place today. If we had a calendar like theirs, we'd have over 20 percent. support and solid representation in the Sejm. So possibly you should have done that alternatively of guessing? After the presidential election, I sat down with the six people who were left over from my staff and we started to wonder if this was the time to go home. But we saw all these people who got active in the campaign, we called the regions, we talked to everyone who got involved. And then I decided that we gotta do something, build something, that we cannot waste this potential. That what we have built is simply a consequence to the real needs of many people, and they did not vanish erstwhile Duda became president. After all, we want to change Poland. The last thing I want is to brand a political ephemera. I don't want to be labeled as a man who jumps into politics and then retires. erstwhile I do politics, I do politics. It won't last forever, but erstwhile I'm committed, it's 100 percent. I can hear the bitterness in your voice. I would alternatively call it realism. You know, those 3 years were a horror. Organizational financial horror. We compete with political corporations that receive tens of millions of zlotys all year and do not gotta worry about anything. The largest parties, which have been operating for 20 years, do not think about whether this month's collection will rise adequate to make a political action, buy a billboard or shoot a spot. I gotta number all the time whether I will be able to pay my wage in our movement. These are problems that the biggest players have no thought about. I hope that after the elections our organization will receive the organization strengthening that parliamentary parties have. It's not only about money, but above all about the stableness they bring. Then we won't gotta plan overnight, but we will yet be able to act in the long term. Thus strengthened, we will fight in the next elections for the full rate. Are you tired? It was hard, very hard in places, but we overcame all the corners. We made it. We can't be reached, seriously. It took me 3 years to learn a lesson about politics that cannot be learned from stories or textbooks. What have you learned? I saw how different this sphere is from the 1 in which average people function. They frequently say that politics is simply a muck, a quagmire, a cesspool, and they ask me why I'm getting involved. This harsh assessment is due to the fact that people instinctively sense the dramatic incompatibility of the planet in which they live with the planet of politics. Unfortunately, this diagnosis is frequently correct. Politics is frequently a planet based on completely inverted values than those we live in everyday life. For example? In politics, the value is not telling the truth, but not telling the truth. This is the minute erstwhile I sit with individual at the same table, talk, part ways, and the next day I open the paper and read that this politician says something completely different than what we agreed during our conversation. Sometimes even this volt occurs in a substance of hours. Complete reversal: white is black, black is white. Then, on occasion, I ask him what happened. We talked, we agreed. Why…? "You know, but this is politics," I hear. How much time and effort would we save if white were white and black was black? How many problems in Poland would already be solved? That is why I am so stubborn about the request for a fresh policy. Sounds beautiful, but naive. And if in any territory they bargain bicycles, and I say that they should not bargain them, I will besides hear: "sounds beautiful, but naive?". delight let me to keep my religion in a planet where bicycle theft is not standard and politicians tell the fact as an engineer, doctor or teacher must tell it. specified a planet simply costs us much little to operate. At the time erstwhile I dealt with business training, I found out that there are companies that spend 60-70 percent of budget for lawyers to defend her from clients' disloyalty. After all, it's just handling the default distrust. It drives me crazy to think about how many resources we're wasting due to the fact that we can't trust on each other. I remember Rzeszów, it was the first specified action of the democratic opposition. We were expected to put forward a joint candidate for the mayor of the city. It all hung in the balance until the last moment. I remember those frantic calls we made to each another all fewer minutes. 1 called the another to see if the another had made a secret deal with the 3rd and would not deceive him. And so on for half a day. Suddenly, it turns out that 1 of us called the candidate and persuaded him to hold a one-man press conference, only with him. The candidate calls another leaders and asks if they know due to the fact that he feels confused. Fortunately, we all passed the test. erstwhile we got to Rzeszów and met at the town hall, there was a large "phew!". And this beautiful city now has a wise president. I hope I showed my colleagues that we don't like to plot. We are pragmatic, very program oriented, solution oriented. erstwhile we get along, we get along. We don't dig behind anyone's back. However, I think that now is the time for us to start building a real level of trust between us, alternatively of looking at who will run and who will fall down, and making certain that mine is on top. If we win, which I believe, we'll be our closest collaborators, together we'll gotta negociate and make damn hard decisions in super tough conditions. It's not ready in 2 minutes, just like that. This is what I miss today. To be clear: I genuinely like all these guys. They're super-intelligent people. all? You always like individual more, individual less, and individual not at all. I come to politics with a alternatively rich baggage of interpersonal relations. I can appreciate certain things. I truly like Donald Tusk's sharp sense of humor, his fast punch lines. I know this competition, I can appreciate a worthy sparring partner. With Włodzimierz Czarzasty, who has a immense library, it's large to talk not only about books. Władek Kosiniak-Kamysz is simply a sensation in general - everyone respects him, there is no 1 who would talk badly about him. He brings calmness and rationality to the conversation. I truly like them, but I already know what we're playing. I hope that we will be able to work it out so that we can scope out to people together and offer them a product that will change their lives. I emphasize: their lives. due to the fact that politics should not be about us, politics is about the house, not about the excavator or trowel that is expected to build this house. Do you feel safe adequate to turn your back on any of the leaders of the democratic opposition? (laughs) Like that? Politically? NO. If we are talking about individual relationships - yes. In politics, you can't turn your back, due to the fact that it's risky to even stand sideways. I guess it's tiring. Tiring? Bright. But what am I expected to do with it? I am realist. I don't dream of us abruptly becoming a bunch of best friends, but I would like us to be able to talk honestly to each other. And not: the top of tenderness, and the bottom of hatred and teasing. Do you like Jarosław Gowin too? Yes. Though I believe he made a critical mistake. He left the government besides late. After all, we talked to him erstwhile he was inactive in the United Right. We explained to him that if he wanted to change the destiny of Poland, he had to leave the government and join the democratic opposition. Then it would be possible to make a method government, prepare fair elections, halt the demolition of Poland even then. Gowin leaving would control the narrative, Gowin being expelled would be reliant on Kaczyński's narrative. We all know how it ended. Godwin has been through hell. I have respect for him as a man, I greatly appreciated his achievements from before political times, but I do not see a political future with him. It is said that you are to form an electoral tripartite alliance: you, Kosiniak and Gowin. Is this the fresh quality in politics: a debuting organization plus old-timers? I do not know about that. We are seriously considering the request to form tactical pre-election alliances, but not in this configuration and most likely in a fewer months. It is besides possible that support for PiS will fall to the level of 20 percent. And then each of us will be able to safely start alone. This would be the best for democracy - it will guarantee the highest turnout, more people will have their representatives in parliament. But if that doesn't happen, you'll gotta face d'Hondt together. We have the cards we have. PiS inactive has support at around 35 percent. It won't take long. More than a year before the elections in 2015, the PO had even more, and it went down until the vote for 24 percent. And present the situation is dramatically worse for those in power than it was then. All indicators of power assessment and social sentiment are falling head over heels. Inflation eats people's money, the air smells of recession, debt installments are evidence high, we already know that there will be no coal in winter and there will most likely be a shortage of gas. It will be the hardest winter in decades. And the most painful presentation of the incompetence of the rulers in the past of our post-communist freedom. The prime minister's position is weakening, Ziobro is blackmailing Kaczyński, their area for maneuver is radically limited - they have driven us into a crisis so deep that they have already limited their ability to print money and distribute it left and right. If their people do not sweep distant the cold radiators and poverty, they will not screw up the 2023 budget, in which you will gotta spend twice as much on debt service and billions more on the army. We are within scope of the deepest crisis - economic, geopolitical, state, citizens' trust in the state - for years. The most crucial elections in 30 years in a moment. The request to rapidly find an answer to the question: how to give people hope, and not just make them fear the reality that they see as hard. This is the subject for me today, not fixation rituals and rites around 1 list. How do you feel about these constant requests for a joint list? It intrigued me a lot at first. Over time, I came to the conclusion that this is already a spiritual issue. I know what I am talking about due to the fact that I have experience in spiritual narrative. The Church of the 1 List was founded, which has its own holy books, priests, rituals ... Who is the pope? It's clear (laughs). This Church has its media, its followers, missionaries, researchers. For a year we have been showing, proving, explaining that this can be dangerous. Drive distant even a million voters from the polls. It will end like in Hungary - translating into Polish realities: Kaczyński's people can stick a large inscription "Für Deutschland, Donald Tusk" on all poster of Biedroń, Gowin or Kosiniak. Tusk is simply a seasoned politician, he is aware of this risk. I realize the motivations behind this, I'm fed up with PiS, to the bow, and I believe that everything must be done to drive them to the 4 winds. But I besides admit that the discussion with those who say: so halt "humming", jump on 1 list managed by PO, can be hard. Talking to them, or reading their comments on Twitter or in "Gazeta Wyborcza" - and I like anonymous letters from readers there the most - I have the impression that they sincerely resent me for having mismanaged my fate, causing serious dissonance. I should sign up for PO today, make an appointment with Donald, ask him politely for a single in Sieradz, and yet you could breathe a sigh of relief, again there would be only 2 worlds to serve, well known for 20 years - the good 1 and the bad one. Before the elections - again a wonderful mobilization of "our people", triumphant polls, joyful manifestations, and then - as most likely 8 or 9 times in a row - a hangover on a post-election Monday. due to the fact that it turned out that if the game goes to mobilize the iron electorate of PiS and the opposition - concentrated around the largest PO in the polls - then we always lose this war. I am accused of having a "Tusk complex", that I am furious with him, that he thwarted my plans to become "the leader of the opposition". full bullshit. After all, erstwhile we had 25% and PO had 16%, I said - and there are respective proofs of this in interviews - that I don't want to be one, that it's time for a fresh reasoning about politics, not more Grunwald leaders. I am a pragmatist, I want to win due to the fact that I want to make a change. I will do what it takes to accomplish it. And my ambitions are fulfilled elsewhere - at home, in books, I don't dream at night about stools, palaces, or a business card with an eagle. I want to change politics, not settle in it. All my adult life I voted for the UW or PO, in the last fewer elections it was definitely "against PiS" than for. And I decided that I don't want to do that anymore, that I want to have a real choice. How many specified people are there in Poland? If our current 12 percent – over 2 million Poles – is that not enough? Over the past 2 months, our negative electorate has fallen by 10 percent points. This means that the current PiS voters have just paid horrendously advanced electricity bills and went to the store, and there it turned out that inflation is so advanced that they can no longer afford many things. Kurski's propaganda will not truly cover this crisis. But possibly it will be covered by Kaczyński's ploy on LGBT Poles? Not any more. Kaczyński tried this trick, he won't grow from it. He knows that now these elections will only be about mobilization and demobilization. At least that's his vision. He wants to motivate his own and discourage the rest. That's why he says these idiocies. He's not talking to us. Kaczyński has long shown the mediate finger to 83 percent. society. He wins with support - taking into account the turnout - 17 percent. adult Poles. The humiliation of people cannot be left unanswered, but neither can Kaczyński be drawn into this dirty game. It should be said: "Mr. Kaczyński, you are disgusting and you should confess for despising people. You bring tears to many Polish homes and you should apologize for it. alternatively of fighting gays, tell me why you made people decision out of their homes due to the fact that they can't afford the fees, why they can't do average shopping, why fuel becomes a luxury. That is why I do not regulation out that Kaczyński will decide to rotation over the tape and call early elections to escape it. And in the meantime, he will do everything to destruct those 10-12 percent. support that Poland 2050 has, due to the fact that then he will have the 3rd word in his pocket. This is another reason why the full opposition, especially the PO, should realize that it is not worth digging holes under yourself. Would you like a random passer-by to decide whether your wife can terminate an unwanted pregnancy or not, and not herself? due to the fact that this is how the referendum on abortion, which you are in favour of, can be presented on a micro scale. And why do we agree that this "accidental passer-by" decides who and what will teach my child? Or - how did he treat and on what basis did he confirm the death of my loved ones? Or how will my company be treated? Why should he decide whether my kid will be a citizen of the European Union or not? After all, it is this "accidental passer-by" who decides whether not in a referendum, then choosing an MP or an MP? If we agreed on democracy, this is how it must be. In each of the things that make us different. We live in a community where we have different opinions on this subject. However, we must have any law that will regulate our joint functioning. There are people who say: "the right to abortion is simply a human right, it cannot be decided for a woman." Others, in turn, say: "the right of the fetus to life is simply a human right." If you believe any of these things and place it in the inviolable depository of human rights, then there is no longer area for any conversation, for any democracy. So in this situation I say: "Not the law written under the conscience of Hołownia, but the referendum". Why a referendum? And why does individual come and say that the vote of the representatives of the nation in the Sejm is expected to be better than the direct vote of the citizens who elected these representatives? The nation is more stupid than the deputies it has elected? Is it inactive a democracy? I came and I say: your wife is the smartest about her abortion. My wife has an opinion on this matter, just like millions of Polish women. But we must have a legal regulation on this matter. It's a right to fix it somehow. due to the fact that that's what democracy is all about. Our proposal is to do what Ireland has done. And there it ended the way it did: liberalization. On paper. In practice, access to the procedure is inactive difficult. I see no another method than a referendum. This is my opinion. delight don't agree with him. I believe there needs to be a strong mandate to get this done. A strong mandate is precisely the referendum, asking for the opinion not of deputies, but straight of the sovereign - Poles. So if you ask me what I would do if I had the power: I would reconstruct the position quo ante, i.e. the abortion compromise of the 1990s, and then ... What compromise? The public protested against the ban. Women have been doing what they want for 30 years anyway. They terminate unwanted pregnancies simply due to the fact that they do not want one, and these 3 dramatic exceptions to the 1993 Act are just a fraction of the reasons. Nobody agreed with that solution. Nobody. It was besides conservative for some, besides liberal for others. But this disagreement was the only agreement we had over the years. We couldn't afford anything else. Kaczyński came and screwed it up by spitting in the faces of millions of Polish women. due to the fact that he needed it for political purposes. As a politician, do you realize that for me, a female and a citizen, a referendum on whether I can terminate my unwanted pregnancy is as sensible as a referendum on whether you can have a vasectomy? I realize that you may have specified a position. And I do not share it for the reasons I have laid out above. You know whether he wants to or not. It's your body. It's not my business. And vice versa. Only my worldview assumes that abortion is not just about my interior organs, it's besides about another entity. It's not just a substance of my vas deferens, it's a substance of any entity to which we either attribute certain rights, certain characteristics, or we don't. We have different views on this. I realize that, I respect it. And I don't impose my opinion on others. In our movement there is and will be no discipline in matters of conscience, on this peculiar substance I clearly have a different opinion than a crucial part of our politicians. What more can I do than ask that my vote be treated in law making like yours? I presume it is very likely that in the event of a vote, a referendum, I will be outvoted. And yet I will inactive consider it the right solution, and I will not change my mind. Do you know that regardless of the result of a possible referendum, women will inactive do what they do now: make their own decisions? The fresh restrictions - like Kaczyński's ban and the ban from 30 years ago - will be fiction. Therefore, the state should see this and give the society the chance to express its opinion. This is besides crucial a substance to make it the subject of further scuffles somewhere in the mediate of the night in the parliamentary hall. Well, in the process of citizens' deliberations, written questions. The seriousness of the referendum vote. Everyone asked for an opinion. The dispute will not go away. This issue will always disagree between us. But what we can do is let everyone, not only Kaczyński, bishops or pro-abortion activists, effectively and bindingly, in the most serious form provided for by the Constitution, denounce. What have you learned about the media as a politician? I worked in the media for a 4th of a century, I did radio, television, I worked in dailies and weeklies, I created on the Internet. I am honestly amazed at how much the line between information and journalism has blurred here and there in political journalism. I remember from the beginning of my work at "Gazeta Wyborcza" that we made layouts in which the writer first gave facts about a given case, and only then, under a large inscription "Comment", he wrote what he thinks about it. Now everything is mixed up. any of my colleagues are amazed by the almost spiritual belief in the rightness of the way of a given political party. Identity media are not only on the right scene. With the bare eye, I can see journalistic gangsters, hitmen, usually from the tabloids, carrying out orders from our organization competition. But even in respected titles or stations, I sometimes see columnists, but besides journalists, surviving off what their "sources", i.e. the creators of the political parties' narrative, throw at them. Initially, I asked directly: listen, how is it like this? Are you going one-to-one with the communicative that this MP has pointed out to you? Do you edit the material in specified a way that everyone but your idol looks like a moron? After all, I know how to make a text, news material, it's manipulation. I see large eyes, incomprehension, due to the fact that - but how? After all, PiS needs to be removed from power, what are you, well, do you agree? This is simply a subject for a truly powerful conversation: should the media, but besides any polls, study reality to people or make it for them? Are you 1 of the victims of these "gangsters"? I don't think of myself in those terms. I just see that something is profoundly incorrect here. We did our job. We were told we wouldn't last a year, we lasted more than two. In fact, we have developed an association that does a large occupation in local Poland, but also, for example, last year on the border, we are building a organization in a hurry, we have a think tank that has produced thousands of pages of programs. And later I hear on any radio jeremiady: "Oh, due to the fact that you don't know what Hołownia is about, due to the fact that he doesn't have a program". I've been sending these thousands of pages. Then I hear: "Oh, due to the fact that it's besides long, you request passwords and populism, it works." People, come to your senses, please, how to delight you (laughs)? After what I saw from this side and learned about the media, I don't know if I would always be able to return to them again. Another thing is to compose books. Anyway, I late signed a contract for another one, possibly I'll tell you a fewer things in item (laughs). Will it be a bestseller? I am glad that my books and those I co-authored together sold almost a million copies, but present the marketplace is highly difficult, so I don't know how it will be. I besides have a bit of phase fright coming back to this activity after specified a long break, but I love challenges.